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Theodosius the Great · 08-25-2004, 04:23 AM

Avete. 
 
I have a question about wearing segmentata. I recently received mine from Albion Armorers. When I put it on over my subarmalis and lace up all the staps, there is a gap under where the two breast plates meet and above the first hoops forming a diamond or triangular shape. You can see the subarmalis showing through this diamond shaped gap. A serious flaw given that part of the torso is a vital area that needs to be protected . One good thrust and I'm out for the count. 
 
I do have all the leather straps buckled to the tightest position. 
 
Does or has anyone else had this problem ? Maybe I need to wear more padding at the shoulders so that will level the plates. Maybe it was poorly constructed. 
 
Any ideas for a solution ? 
 
I really appreciate any help you can offer. 
 
Thanks. 
-Theo

Matt Lukes · 08-25-2004, 05:27 AM

Ave Theo, 
 
I recognized the possibility of this little problem when making my own Lorica- it really sounds as if it's simply a poor fit for you. I assume it's a Corbridge A since you mention straps? Mine's a B, and to avoid that rather vulnerable hole, I sited the hooks and adjusted the collar plates such that the chest plates a) extend sufficiently below the top of the first torso bands that donning it won't make them ride up past that point, and b) overlap only a little, and don't cross at a very sharp angle. It sounds to me like you can possibly bend the collar plates outwards to maybe lessen the angle of overlap, and really only tightening the front vertical straps as much as possible would keep them low enough (or keep the torso from falling too low). You might even consider altering yours to a B by removing the front and back straps altogether and applying hooks at the proper height to solve the problem (straps are the weak point of the design anyway). 
 
Just my two Sestersii 
 
Vale, 
 
Matt

Theodosius the Great · 08-25-2004, 08:42 AM

Quote:<hr>tightening the front vertical straps as much as possible would keep them low enough (or keep the torso from falling too low). You might even consider altering yours to a B<hr> 
 
Ave, Matt. 
 
Yes, I think I may be able to tighten the two vertical straps even more by punching new holes in them. I'll give that a try first. 
 
Is it really feasable to convert a Corbrige A to a B ? There are no other major differences besides the straps for hooks ? 
 
I onced asked someone if a Corbrige A could be converted to a Newstead and he basically said "no". He'd rather build one from scratch than make the attempt. 
 
Thanks for your help. 
-Theo

08-25-2004, 09:28 AM

Ave Theo, 
 
It sounds like the old problem that doesn't get enough attention. I started a thread about this a while ago. 
You can correct this quite simply: Just adjust the mid-collar plates. 
When you look at the back, you will see the back-collar plates hinged at an angle to the mid collar plates. If you strap up the back correctly you will have a fitting problem in front. When you strap up the breastplates correctly, the back will show an opening. 
Now when you twist the mid-collar plates, you'll correct the angle in front and everything fits fine. This even lifts up the rim of the mid-collar plates a bit, providing you with a more protective collar. 
 
Success! 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

Theodosius the Great · 08-25-2004, 10:43 AM

Ave, Quintilianus. 
 
 
Quote:<hr>when you twist the mid-collar plates, you'll correct the angle in front and everything fits fine<hr> 
 
Sounds a bit vague or maybe it just completely flew over my head . 
 
What do you mean exactly by 'twist' ? 
 
Do you mean like move the shoulder sections forward ? 
 
-Theo

08-25-2004, 12:28 PM

is that the lacing loops on the gridle plates are incorrectly postioned. I rebuilt the left-hand gridle section and relocated the lacing loops, moving the loops to the right on the front and to the left on that back. That change plus addition shoulder padding greatly improved the fit.

08-25-2004, 01:50 PM

I will try to explain this further with words. 
When you make a segmentata yourself and you shape the mid-collar plate, you have to bend it to follow the curve of the shoulder. But then you take it in both hands (the short sides) and twist it like a wet piece of cloth you want to get dry. 
You should be able to do this with your Albion too, even without dismantling the shouldergard pieces. 
That's it. 
Please don't hesitate to ask for more details if needed. 
 
Greetings, 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

Matt Lukes · 08-25-2004, 08:01 PM

Ave, 
 
What Jurgen is describing is exactly what I meant by changing the shape of the collar plates in my first reply. When I made my armor, it really required a lot of experimenting with different amounts of twist (keeping the back vertical and moving the front plate side to side- in your case it would be moving each one outwards. It shouldn't be too difficult once you unstrap everything and have simply a right and a left shoulder section to work with. It might take a little fiddling to keep the collar comfortable. I did find that it's a combination of the position of the torso-shoulder connectors AND the twist of the mid-collar plates that affects the angle the chest plates sit at. Since the front plates have only a single connector hook or strap, if it's too far one way or the other, they'll be pulled one way or the other. If you do choose to do the conversion, you'll have to carefully determine the best position for the front hangers. 
 
As for converting a Corbridge A to a B, that's no problem- the only difference really is the use of hooks to connect the torso section to the shoulder sections instead of belts. The 4 back connectors are on the outside, not the inside like the belts of the A, otherwise they're pretty-much the same. There's a lot more difference between the B and the Newstead. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matt

Matthew Amt · 08-26-2004, 01:28 PM

Avete! 
 
If you ask me, there are a LOT of subtle differences between Corbridge A and B. The upper shoulder guards are a different shape; there are different rivet arrangements on the backplates; the lacing loops are mounted higher on the B; type B has fewer girdle plates; and most noticeably the lobed hinges are different in shape. (Granted, the hinges on the Albion lorica aren't a great shape anyway and too big, but...) According to the evidence we have, it's a lot more than just "hooks versus straps". (And yes, the Newstead is a completely different beast!) 
 
I know people who have all kinds of problems with those hooks breaking, and they are definitely inclined to snag on things. The straps, on the other hand, allow much more adjustment and play, relieving stress on the brass. IF your leather is good! 
 
Sounds like you already have a lot of good suggestions on how to get your lorica plates to fit better. There are a lot of complicated relationships between plate sizes and shapes, and I think the Indians missed on a few key points. But play with twisting and bending things for a bit, and adjusting the straps. You might have to move a couple fittings an inch or so. In the end, though, if you still have a finger-sized gap, it's not much to worry about considering how well-armored the rest of your chest is. 
 
Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

mcbishop · 08-26-2004, 05:03 PM

type B has fewer girdle plates; and most noticeably the lobed hinges are different in shape 
 
I suspect the number of girth hoops has less to do with type than size of the individual wearing it - don't forget that the Stillfried cuirass had different numbers of plates in the two halves. 
 
As for the lobate hinges, those too were very much a product of the taste of the individual making them. It may even be that the differences between A and B/C were down to individual interpretations of the Corbridge concept, rather than temporal or developmental differences. 
 
Still, in a strict interpretation of the evidence (such as it is), what you say is right! 
 
Mike Bishop

08-26-2004, 06:15 PM

"the differences between A and B/C were down to individual interpretations of the Corbridge concept" 
Umm- am I misreading or is there a Corbridge C??

Crispvs · 08-26-2004, 07:30 PM

Corbridge 'C' is a subset of Corbridge 'B' (if I remember Robinson right - as always I am still at the office as I type this). The essential difference is that whilst on the 'B' the connecting loops project below the lower edges of the breast/shoulder units, on the 'C' they do not project below the edges and the iron which would otherwise block the loopholes is punched through to allow the hooks to pass through. 
 
Regarding the gaps between the breast and upper girdle plates on Corbridge type lorica segmentata, for our recent march along Hadrian's Wall I padded my shoulders with two simple cushions each made of a four by five inch piece of leather sewn around the edges onto my existing leather undergarment and sandwiching three layers of blanket wool between the two layers of leather. These certainly made the 11 - 15 miles per day march in armour much more comfortable, but I noted that even though they did narrow the gap between the plates quite significantly, they did not close it completely. Over the winter I will be drawing on some of the lessons learnt during the march (and possibly writing on some as well) but of significance here I will be extending the cushions over a much greater area of my shoulders and chest(in the interests of comfort) and increasing the amount of padding between the layers of leather over the shoulders themselves in an attempt to completely close the gap between the plates. I'll tell you all the results next season. 
 
Crispvs

Matt Lukes · 08-26-2004, 10:53 PM

Avete, 
 
I'll concede that there were a few small differences between the Corbridge A and B, but remember the designations are based on a very few fragmentary artifacts from a single point in time really. It therefore makes little sense to focus on such tiny differences as rivet position and the slight angle on the bottom of the greater shoulder plate lower ends. 
 
Segmented armor was used for centuries, and therefore there were surely variants that had a mixture of features. I'd bet there was a B variant that had all the tiny A features but had hooks instead of belts connecting the shoulders to the torso. 
 
The reason I said that the hooks are 'pretty-much' the only difference between the A and B is because they're the only significant FUNCTIONAL difference. The fact that there were more or fewer torso plates could well have been simply because the soldier for whom the armor was made was taller or shorter, the angle of the bottom of the greater shoulder plate could have simply been a decorative feature added by one armorer or at the owner's request, and the shape of the lobate hinges was quite obviously COMPLETELY artstic in nature and therefore varied a lot. 
 
Valete 
 
Matt

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