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Cheiroballistra Parts
#46
Oh no, the depictions on Trajan's column show no arms at all and, therefore, they cannot be taken as firm evidence on support of inswinging or outswinging (Moreover, some people take the absence of arms as a proof of them being placed at the inside of the frame, where they would have been less conspicuous for the sculptor's eye).<br>
What I affirm is that, in the current state of our knowledge, the available evidence supports the reconstruction of palintones either as inswingers or as outswingers but with an accent on the inswinging choice.<br>
I insist, read the abstract of my paper when you're fresh in the morning and we can continue afterwards!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#47
Ok, my friend. I will do that. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#48
My bulges are the opposite of picture 4. They are on the back not the front and they face inwards. I tend to build my artillery so the end of the arm clears the inside of the straight support . Some finds do not have offset supports so putting the straight one at the back limits the amount you can pull the arms back.<br>
On your earlier post you say that you can clearly see from the picture of Trajans column. I would say that the depictions are so crude that you cannot see anything clearly from them.<br>
The depictions of artillery from the column seem to show the artillery could be inward swingers as you cannot see the arms:- if the arms were wound back this is what you would see and the stock seems to protrude from the field frames:- on a inward swinger the field frames are not mounted right on the front as they are on a out swinger.<br>
I have not "improved" my designs but I have put them together as seems a sensible way. I could well be wrong but what I have made is consistent with all the reliable evidence that I have seen.<br>
Because I built the Manuballista first I have been influenced by decisions I made when building it.<br>
Aulus cladius maximus <p></p><i></i>
Bernard Jacobs
Any opinion stated is genally not the opinion of My group or Centurian
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#49
Hi Aulus,<br>
The only field-frames with radially set bars are the Gornea ones in their actual condition, but I think that we must take them with caution, given that they were chemically de-rusted and maybe the setting of the bars was altered (a simple rotation around their axis) and that all the other extant field-frames posess off-set bars, even the 'Cheiroballistra' diagrams depict off-set bars, as I attempted to prove in my paper.<br>
Well, little can be proved from the depictions on Trajan's Column other than the machines were metallic-framed, but I think that those round bulges portrait the same feature on the actual frames and, therefore, give a secondary clue for the positioning of the field-frames.<br>
I've said 'secondary clue' just because the primary clue is, of course, the Hatra frame. Nobody can discuss were the recesses for the arms are placed on it. I'm afraid that, given the progressive increase in the belief that the Hatra ballista could have only worked effectively as an inswinger, the next move by the 'orthodox party' ,if they see it as a lost battle, will be to reckon the Hatra machine as an isolated 'alien' with a view on their bid for the war...<br>
I have mentioned on a previous post my belief on all the palintones, wooden and iron-framed, working in the same way, even if I'm wrong about inswinging. The word 'palintone' designs a machine that can shoot either stones or arrows. Therefore, the diference with euthytones is not the kind of missile but a structural one. If Romans called their metallic-framed arrow-shooters 'ballistae', it was so because they were palintones too!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#50
Hello,
I am new on this forum and if you want, I can give you somes informations on my cheiroballistra. I m in the VIII augusta reenacment group in France (leg8. com). Many reconstructions are made on the works of Marsden, but I made my chiroballistra on the finds of Orsova. We find a little Kambestrion of just 18,5 centimeters and its possible to make one not so heavy. We make somes ranges at 140 meters ans three or four by minutes. This is a photography.
[Image: photo109akn8.jpg]
Shot at 2007-08-20

and another one in reenacment
[Image: 1002444bisdf4.jpg]
Shot at 2007-08-20
Titus Flavius Pupinius Rufus
Praefectus Fabrum LEG VIII AUGUSTA
Emmanuel Fourré
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#51
Salve!

I finaly had a long, good look at Aitor's webpage and the very clear drawings of the inswinger versus outswinger. I was not too sure about the mechanics of his inswinger design and was REALLY curious, but so far had not taken the time for a good read. What I noticed in his inswinger design is a greater powerstroke, the holy grail in (cross)bows.

The power stroke of a bow is defined as the length of a forward projectile propelling movement of a bowstring when the bow is shot. Increasing the length of the power stroke of a bow increases its speed potential.

Not only will it increase speed, it will allow a heavier projectile (with more inertia, such as a rock) to be fired with the same speed as from a weapon with a shorter powerstroke. For short, powerstroke adds punch Big Grin
Now, I'm by no means an expert on ballista, but given the advantage of the greater powerstroke, I feel with Aitor this is research well worth persuing, perhaps experimenting with the lenght of the arms as well.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#52
Robert without any photos of our inswinger I have one from the Uruna- Veleia website Big Grin
[Image: 010.jpg]
Here is the link http://www.veleia.com/ingles/yacimiento.php select images then Ludi Veleienses 2005
Thanks to Aitors group for the pics Big Grin
Regards Brennivs Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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#53
Very nice kit Emmanuel! I like those greaves. Are they based on the ones from the grave stele of Quintus Sertorius Festus?

Do you have a close-up picture of your pugio?

Kind regards,
Jef
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#54
Yes I have the photo but somewhere in my computer. I try to find them
For the Greaves, they are not a copy of those of Sertorius. They are made about a find of Herculanum on which there were some decorations but not engraved or embossed and they have disepeared and I try with a decoration of an armillae of the soldier who has been discovered in that town to put the decoration. It's an hypothesis.
For the pugio the problem is that I know naow that it's a false pugio. I made it on the evidences which are shown in the Book of Michel Feugères, but Erik Konig sais me that it's a false find which is made last century.
[Image: dmontagepugiomanuelqp8so4.jpg]
Titus Flavius Pupinius Rufus
Praefectus Fabrum LEG VIII AUGUSTA
Emmanuel Fourré
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#55
Aha!

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=17666
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#56
Quote:Aha!

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=17666

@Jim: yes, from the first picture I suspected that this could be the pugio from Feugere, but I wasn't 100% sure. That's why I asked for the close-up Big Grin


Thanks Emannuel!
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#57
Back to the cheiroballistra ..! Big Grin

Quote:Many reconstructions are made on the works of Marsden, but I made my chiroballistra on the finds of Orsova. We find a little Kambestrion of just 18,5 centimeters and its possible to make one not so heavy.

Very nice reconstruction, Emmanuel.
However, I see that in photo 1, the crescent-shaped fitting is fixed horizontally, as in the belly-bow. But in photo 2, it is fixed vertically, like a shoulder-rest. Does it swivel from one position to the other?!

Also, where did you take your dimensions from?
You report that your cheiroballistra is based on the Orsova finds, but the Orsova kambestrion is 36cm tall and probably belongs to a static ballista rather than a hand-held weapon. The Orsova kamarion is even more massive (1.25m wide).
(Incidentally, the Cheiroballistra text specifies a kambestrion of 11 1/6 daktyls = 20.6cm.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#58
This is the size of our Osrova approx 1.25 m wide. I just dont have any good pics at the momment Cry
[Image: 010.jpg]
http://www.veleia.com/ingles/yacimiento.php
Regards Brennivs Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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#59
Quote:This is the size of our Osrova approx 1.25 m wide.
Clearly not a hand weapon, Tony!! Big Grin
You must post more pictures when you get them. I'd love to see your ballista in more detail.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#60
No problem Duncan Big Grin All I can show is this view of Uruna.
[Image: Uruna.jpg]
The left hand edge of the pic roughly in the middle ,we fired it from here it cleared the walls of Uruna and went into the greener field next to the darker one we fired from.I dont no how far into this field it went so sorry I cannot put X on the spot, but I hope you can see.Ill get the pics after the exibition finishes in Durham Big Grin
Regards Brennivs Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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