Goth armour

[Alanus]

The horse is way too big too

Geez, Dan

How small a horse do you think an Alan cataphract used! The Saka/Alans had 15-hand high horses in 400BC. These people were horse breeders. It's what they did... just like ancient Native Americans developed enlarged corn.

Someone said that lamellar at this time had nothing but shoulder straps. I don't agree. We see wrap-over lamellar at the shoulder on Scythian armor from the Crimea and Kuban, again in contemporaneous Chinese pics. Perhaps some won't agree, but many historians have claimed the Chinese borrowed armor and cavalry tactics from the Sarmatians, aka the Wusun and Yuechi. When John Woo filmed Red Cliff, he used 3 historical armor and weapon consultants. The armor and swords in that movie are dead-on accurate, the only film I've seen which depicts Han era military costume and weapons correctly. My own Sarmatian armor has wrap-over shoulder protection. We also see shoulder armor in the Ashmolian. If we see it both east and west of Sarmatia, then the lack of it being worn by Alans could only occur if they were living in a cultural void.

[daryush]

Surely that is well before the period, Alanus? I do not recall coming across lamellar cuirass with lamellar shoulder straps in late antiquity anywhere - although the shoulders do often appear to be protected with a gorget or collar, and upper arm flaps.

I'll admit that I may be missing something but I would like to see some images from late antiquity showing lamellar shoulder straps on a lamellar cuirass.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I was referring to a gorget or "doubler", not shoulder straps.

EDIT: Something like this maybe:

[Alanus]

I was thinking of the shoulder wrap-over protection we see on Scythian armor, also what Simonenko likens to lorica plumata similar to that found in Britain. We see similar doublers on a Roman centurian's lorica hamata. If this style were made of lamellar rather than scales (and how do we know it wasn't) it would be much like the popular AD200 Chinese style. Almost all of the various armor styles have been either broken or robbed from Sarmatian graves, but Simonenko believes most of it was a combination of scale, lamellar, and mail. I simply had my armor built to include all three variations... and lamellar shoulder armor is more practical and hardier, and safer in battle, than scale. Why wouldn't a Sarmatian have used it? Today, we look at armor in this "fixed" style or that one, and we tend not to imagine the great variations that were customized for individual warriors by craftsmen from China to Rome.

[attachment=8866]4QinSoldier.JPG[/attachment]
A Qin Dynasty archer, c.220BC


[attachment=8867]13.JPG[/attachment]
Archaeological reconstruction armor, AD 208 (from Red Cliff)

Chinese history notes that in the 4th century BC Lord Wu required his cavalry to dress and use armor patterned after the "barbarians." This armor continued, and was refined, into the Qin dynasty and then into the Han dynasty and the Three Kingdoms period.

Where, and from whom, did the Chinese get their lamellar armor from... and likewise, where did the Romans and Sassanids get their armor from. I would say they got it from the same "barbarians"-- the Saka/ Massagetae/Alans.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Widespread use of Lamellar in the Roman Army doesn't seem to have occured until After the widespread use of Hunnic Federates beginning under Stilicho in 405. (Aetius would later use them en-masse and this is likely where the introduction came in.)

[TDawson]

I am a bit amazed that this discussion happened at all. It is an Osprey colour plate, for goodness sake, probably from a volume by David Nicolle. It is not evidence for *anything*!

Go to the primary evidence!

[Vindex]

I am a bit amazed that this discussion happened at all. It is an Osprey colour plate, for goodness sake, probably from a volume by David Nicolle. It is not evidence for *anything*!

Go to the primary evidence!

I think you'll find the responses are discussing the primary evidence as the query was based on (as I understand it) doubt in the artist's impression. It seems to me a legitimate and interesting discussion - or have I missed something?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Thinking of Lamellar, I've never quite understood the difference - is it that Scale is suspended on a leather Throng while Lamellar has no leather backing, or what?

[Alanus]

Hello Moi & Evan,

You have it correctly. Scale armor was sewn with either sinew or rawhide lacing to a leather backing. Whereas lamellar was self-sustained and had no leather backing. As to when exactly lamellar showed up in Europe, not necessarily within the Roman army? I don't think we can pinpoint it. Since lamellar is Eastern, it probably showed up with the first Eastern tribes to arrive in the Kuban and Crimea... which I would imagine were the Sirices, Aorsi, and Roxolani. It isn't shown on Trajan's column. But Simonenko notes that Roman artistic convention only showed scale armor, and it is shown in a very stylistic manner (not accurately). Lamellar was part of what he calls Sarmatian "combination armor," which also included scale and mail, all of it worn by an individual who could afford it. Sometime, I'll post a photo of my combination armor, but it requires a helper for me to get into it.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Thanks for the information.

I've gotten back into that "Leather versus metal" discussion again on TWC. Ugh... Muscle Cuirasses.

[TDawson]

Lamellar was used by the Etruscans, but the Romans evidently discounted it when they conquered Etruria. It was known in Syria when the Empire absorbed Palmyra and may have started to make inroads from then. It really begins colonising Roman practice from the influence of the Avars in the C5th and C6th.

It is all in the book!

T.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Thanks for the information. I thought it was introduced by the Proto-Turks in the 5th century (i.e. the Huns.)

[Dan Howard]

Lamellar was used by the Etruscans

Not if you define lamellar the way Alan just did.

[Alanus]

We ought to be able to figure this thing out.
We've got 2 armor (or armour) experts posting on this thread. And both of them have written books! :-)

Interesting thing about the Etruscans. They originally came from the Lavant... which is sort-of like "Eastern," and one of the few cultures in Europe that didn't speak an Indo-European language. :whistle:

[Dan Howard]

Using your definition of lamellar, the earliest example I've found dates to the Warring States period in China. Twelve suits of lacquered rawhide lamellar were found in Leigudun, China. They are attributed to the Qin and look very similar to the armour depicted on the Terracotta Warriors. Etruscan armour and all earlier examples are laced to a foundation of leather, linen, or felt.