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Polybius\' description and the Fayum scutum
#16
The Roman Army did not just randomly switch from Combat to Testudo if missiles were incoming.

First of all, primary source accounts that missile fire in a battle was constant, second of all, if you watch re-enactment the rear ranks are pushing up against the front ranks to hold the line or advance. There was no way to form a Testudo if a "volley" of missiles came in.

Even in Rome: Total War if you put a unit of Legionnaires randomly into Testudo, they'll get slaughtered.

EDIT:
@Macedon

If Polybius and Arrian's description of the Marching Testudo is similar than it is likely the Testudo became the Foulkon (Fulcum).
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#17
Quote:If Polybius and Arrian's description of the Marching Testudo is similar than it is likely the Testudo became the Foulkon (Fulcum).

It is not just likely. It is practically the same formation, the term changing with the eras. It is also known by many other names (chelone, keramoton etc) and in one or another form has been used by many cultures. Even a cavalry foulcon is attested in the sources. That synaspismos in close or compact order and testudo-like formations were believed the best defense against missiles of all (normal) types is undeniable. The sources are very (and massively) clear on this. Testudo-like formations are also described as something quite normal in the tactics available to a commander, not as something exceptional or strange.

Some (Greek) sources relevant to the use and usefulness of such formations include, among others, Arrian, Nicephorus Uranus, Sylloge Tacticorum, Leo VI, Polybius, Josephus, Onasander, Apollonius Rhodius, Plutarch, Cassius Dio and Sextus Julius Africanus.

I can of course provide full references if necessary, I just do not think that this information is at the moment really relevant to the OP.
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#18
Christian,

I am genuinely saddened. I happily admit to being an 'amateur' (ie I do this for fun and don't get paid to - I wish!) historian and I only have access to what I know, can find and hopefully, indeed, perhaps be pointed to by those who know of more and is why I ask questions here.

If you just want to state that there are sources that I may not be aware of and not tell me which, then that's fine; but that's just wasting both of our time even posting about it.


Christian & Evan,

Sources - well, any time I see the word testudo in the sources I try to understand the context. Funnily enough, testudo is used to combat incoming missiles; whether it's in sieges (where the pictography tends to place it), or in open field battles like Carrhae where there's all those arrows.

If you wish me to believe that telling soldiers not to raise their shields when arrows and javelins and stones are incoming - for no reason but for them to suffer - then I'm sure you must have an excellent reason to do so that escapes me. Remind me not to serve in your army! Tongue

Most of the primary source accounts concertina the time frame rather a lot and describe the main actions. There may be a great deal of missile fire, but ammunition supply would be insufficient to survive the hours of combat that take place and isn't mentioned (some do). Moreover, I am not talking about forming testudo when in combat, but in the 90%+ of time when you're out of combat and possibly being fired upon - like the initial skirmishing phase (mostly just mentioned briefly, but could be very significant).

When you finally get up close and engage, then normally you are relying on the fact that the enemy won't wish to fire on their own troops (bows and javelins and even slings do not have sights and great accuracy normally). It does still happen sometimes, however, and in that situation you just have to take your chances.


Evan

I suspect your re-enactment testudo and mine are not quite the same - see the 'other thread' later. Suffice to say that the pictographic testudo all alone in front of the walls, is probably not exactly the same as the one in the battle line.

Lastly - we both (I believe) post on the TWCenter forums and I think we both know that even the best RTW mod out there, that I support wholeheartedly (and therefore you might guess my handle there), doesn't get everything right. :wink:
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#19
You may not have to do your experiment. Some of us have done it already many times.

In my own group we have no standard shield shape. Curved legionary shields can currently be seen in three shapes: straight sides and straight upper and lower edges, curved sides and straight upper and lower edges, straight sides and curved upper and lower edges. Flat auxiliary shields are also presently seen in three different shapes: a narrow oval, a wider but slightly shorter oval, straight sides with curing upper and lower edges. We may yet introduce further shield shapes.

When forming testudos, we do not find that the differing shield shapes are any hindrance to creating a good defensive formation, as long as the shields are all about the same size and curvature. It is even possible to successfully combine flat and curved shields, as long as all of the shields making up the roof element are of the same curvature as each other. Even a combination such as this, it is still possible to create a formation with very few gaps. We used to demonstrate this to the public by getting our archers to shoot at us as we advanced in testudo formation.
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#20
Crispus (not Paul :wink: )

Thank you,

Quite understood - and I certainly wasn't suggesting that any (reasonable) shape of shield overhead (and to the side if necessary) wouldn't afford a reasonable degree of protection at least.

When I suggested the 'ideal' (for men standing next to each other front and back), it's merely that simple square/rectangular would be the easiest.

Goodness - if just the man in the middle could wield a single and expandable shield of large circular proportions, then he could cover everyone like a big umbrella! Confusedilly:
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