Use of greave(s) for a second century impression?

[CM Demetrivs Medicvs]

Salve Milites,
Read as many blogs on here I could find regarding evidence of the milities using greaves, even on on the leading leg during the 2nd century ( particularly under Hadrianus).
Experience wise for me, My parent group ( Legio VI Vitrix / XI HSPout of burbank and San diego) was involved in the Spartatus war performance in Nov 2012 that a french gladiatore troup put on. We did this full contact with blunted metal weapons and well as rudii. at the end all of us bloodied and battered. I can definitely see the advantage of a leading leg grave against these guys chaging full force, some of them put a jumping kick into our scuta. my left leg took a beating from the scutum. Personally I would wear it even if i had to hump it with the rest of my kit.
How does the community weigh in on this?
Salvete

[Crispvs]

Soldiers depicted on the Adamklissi metopes, dating to Trajan's first Dacian campaign, are shown wearing short greaves which finish immediately below the knee. An object, which I believe has been identified as the lining from such a greave, was found in Chichester harbour, which is normally thought of as an invasion period location for military kit. Therefore, wearing short greaves for a second century AD impression is perfectly alright.

Crispvs

[Flavivs Aetivs]

You mean this Greave liner from Vindolanda?

[Crispvs]

Well, Chichester Harbour is a long way from Vindolanda (which begins in the Flavian period and is several hundred miles away), but if the item you posted up has been correctly identified, then it would add further support to the idea that short greaves were already being used by solders well before Trajan's Dacian campaigns.

Crispvs

[M.VAL.BRUTUS]

Hey John,

I have to agree with Crispus on this.

We know a vexillation of Leg VI particpated in the second Dacian War, we know that the legionaries seem to have increased the amount armor they we wearing suring the Dacian campaigns, and being that the Dacian campaigns were only 10 or so years before the reign of Hadrian, then it would make sense for some veterans of that campain to still have some of thei extra kit from those campaigns.

So yeah a greave is perfectly alright, as is a manica if you would like to wear one.

[Dimetrius Scipio]

Hi everyone! I don't really understand why reenactors of Early and Late Roman Empire always trying to avoid the use of long greaves with knee protection in their legionary impressions. I thought about this question for long time and I would like to express my humble opinion about this topic. If we will see the example of Hellenistic armies we always can see that their soldiers have been using long greaves covering the knee zone. Same trend we can see in the pieces of gear of the hoplites of Greek cities-states of more early stage. This trend was also adapted in Roman republican army. Republic gone in history - Early Empire have been created. Then suddenly Roman land became the state of the masochists, who never cover vulnerable knee zone in due of short greaves. I think roman lerionaries were able to use long greaves with knee protection. Of course someone will say that the long greaves became the sign of centurio rank and were not allowed to legionaries. I would like to criticize this statement:

1) Roman centurio already has a lot of visual signs of his rank.

2) I dont think roman legionaries were dumb enough do not wear long greaves and have a risk to become not capable to serve anymore in due if heavy knee trauma.

3) Same about the officers. I don't think they wanted extra non restorable casualties around their subordinates.

4) Empire was concerned to reduce the casualties around their soldiers-citizens.

So why not? Manica was not used in army before Dacian wars and was totally gladiators piece of gear too. Why greaves are being so discriminated? And some good news for folks who think about greaves as the sigh on the rank for do not make them feel down. Greaves can be decorated! So we can assume that soldiers were used long greaves without or minimal decoration, officers worn highly decorated long greaves. Also the question, which kind of greaves (with knee of without) will you choose when the crowd of angry guys with falxes charges on you?

[Crispvs]

Well, it's a matter of going with what the evidence shows and avoiding the use of assumptions until we have no other option but to do so.
Short greaves are shown being worn by legionaries on the Adamklissi metopes. These may well have been carved by soldiers and there is no reason to doubt that short greaves ending below the knee were what was intended to be depicted. This is possibly supported by the surviving objects which have been identified as greave linings and which have been mentioned already in this thread.
Only centuriones are depicted in long greaves. The stelae of centuriones P. Flavonius Facilis, Q. Sertorius Festus, T. Callidius Severus and M. Petronius Classicus all show long greaves. No miles gregarius of the early empire is anywhere depicted in long greaves as far as we know.

With regard the greaves worn by Republican period soldiers, do we know that these were long? I know that modern depictions of them show them wearing long greaves, but is that supported by archaeological or contemporary pictorial evidence? If it is I am sure many of us here would be very keen to know more. I think it is very likely that the greaves worn by Republican period legionaries are more likely to have been of the native Italian type which is seen commonly in Samnite tomb frescos and which have been found in various parts of the Italian peninsular. These are similar to the shin guards used by soccer players but made of copper-alloy.

The only long greaves which are archaeologically known from the early empire are the huge greaves worn by murmillo gladiators and the type with the hinged knee which is associated with cavalry sports equipment for the hippica gymnastica.
For the infantry we have to rely on sculpture, and the sculptural evidence draws a clear dividing line between centuriones with long greaves and common soldiers with short greaves or no greaves at all.

One last thought to finish on: most of the time those vulnerable knees would have been hidden behind a rather large shield. :wink:

Crispvs

[tiberius aemilius naso]

With regard the greaves worn by Republican period soldiers, do we know that these were long? I know that modern depictions of them show them wearing long greaves, but is that supported by archaeological or contemporary pictorial evidence? If it is I am sure many of us here would be very keen to know more. I think it is very likely that the greaves worn by Republican period legionaries are more likely to have been of the native Italian type which is seen commonly in Samnite tomb frescos and which have been found in various parts of the Italian peninsular. These are similar to the shin guards used by soccer players but made of copper-alloy.

Crispvs

Paul, while scarce, we have some evidence for Republican greaves.
The best one is the Estepa relief (Museo Arqueológico de Sevilla), showing two Roman legionaries, or two auxiliaries equipped at the Roman way, using two greaves covering the knees, with straps over the heel and under the knee). It dates to approximately 45 BC (around the time of the battle of Munda and the conquer of Urso by Caesar).



The reliefs at the church of San Domenico at Sora (tombs incorporated to the walls of the church, dating probably to Augustan time, around 30 BC), seem to depict greaves used for protecting both shin and knees. I now, this are late Republican.

[AMELIANVS]

Some Roman soldiers certainly wear greaves during Marcomannic wars-and it is documented by well preserved exemplars from roman camps digings just a few kilometers away from where I live! I try to find some photo of it later.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I think the Kunzig Greaves from the 3rd century covered the Knee.

But otherwise, I tend to agree that a knee-guard hindered more than it helped because:

1. It bangs against your knee often which can be annoying as hell

2.. The shield covered the knee and part of the shin, so there was no need for it.