The Roman Army of Diocletian

[antiochus]

Renatus wrote:
That's fine. I was afraid that we might be talking about a few weeks.

I also need the time to come to a conclusion about whether there is a link to the legion of Vegetius and the unit sizes in Ammianus. A connection can be made but I feel it is not strong enough to be watertight. On a different question Zosimus (2 39) writes:

“Experience assures us, that while these ceremonies were duly performed, according to the direction of the oracles, the empire was secure, and likely to retain its sovereignty over almost all the known world; and on the other hand, when they were neglected, about the time when Dioclesian laid down the imperial dignity, it fell to decay, and degenerated insensibly into barbarism.”

I would place Diocletian laying down the imperial dignity as stated by Zosimus to 305 AD. Would I be correct?

[Renatus]

I would place Diocletian laying down the imperial dignity as stated by Zosimus to 305 AD. Would I be correct?

I would say so but is that the issue or is it the question of when the ceremonies ceased to be performed? Incidentally, in Ridley's translation, the passage is 2. 7. 1 and is translated slightly differently.

[antiochus]

Renatus wrote:
I would say so but is that the issue or is it the question of when the ceremonies ceased to be performed? Incidentally, in Ridley's translation, the passage is 2. 7. 1 and is translated slightly differently.

I won’t be seeing Ridley until late next month. Would you be able to provide Ridley’s translation of 2 7 1? These ceremonies are in regard to the Pythagorean saeculum and Zosimus in Book 4 writes:

“But not a single individual of them would be persuaded to this, nor recede from the ancient ceremonies, which had been handed down to them from the building of their city, and prefer to them an irrational assent; having, as they said, lived in the observance of them almost 1200 years, in the whole space of which their city had never been conquered, and, therefore, should they change them for others, they could not foresee what might ensue.”

The Suda, writing on the same time period states “The senators said that] by protecting their ancestral customs, they had inhabited a city that had been free from destruction for nearly 1200 years and, exchanging new beliefs for these, they were uncertain of the future.”

Claudian (Gothic War 26 265-320) “But what terrified men's minds still more was the portent of the two slaughtered wolves….But fear, ever a poor interpreter, read disaster in the portent; severed hands, 'twas said, and nursing wolf threatened destruction on Rome and her empire. Then they reckoned up the years and, cutting off the flight of the twelfth vulture, tried to shorten the centuries of Rome's existence by hastening the end.”

All these references fall close to the end of a Pythagorean saeculum. Claudian’s comment “Then they reckoned up the years and, cutting off the flight of the twelfth vulture, tried to shorten the centuries of Rome's existence by hastening the end” has come about because the saeculum has been calculated on Rome’s founding date and this is why Zosimus mentions these ancient ceremonies were performed “from the building of the city.” So as the 1200 years is calculated from Rome’s founding date, the date is 447 AD, but the Pythagorean saeculum is earlier than this. So Claudian’s source is comparing the Pythagorean saeculum, to the Varronian saeculum, which is still based on the Pythagorean saeculum but has a different starting date. You will see this in the material I sent you. Rome’s founding date is not historical. It is given that date for mathematical convenience so Varro can conform his chronology to Pythagorean doctrine.

[Renatus]

Zos. 2. 1-7 deals with the origins of the Secular Games and their attendant ceremonies and, as I read it and Ridley's notes, they commenced some time after the founding of the city (Ridley suggests possibly 348 BC). I will give you the whole of 2. 7:

Therefore, as the oracle truly says, while all this was observed according to direction, the Roman empire was safe and Rome remained in control of virtually all the inhabited world, but once this festival was neglected after Diocletian's abdication, the empire gradually collapsed and was imperceptibly barbarised. The facts themselves show this, as I will prove from chronology. (2) From the consulship of Chilo and Libo (AD 204), when Severus celebrated the Secular Games, until Diocletian for the ninth time and Maximian for the eighth were consuls (AD 304), one hundred years elapsed. Maximian wanted to celebrate the ceremony then, contrary to rule, but next year Diocletian became a private citizen instead of emperor and Maximian followed his example. When Constantine and Licinius were in their third consulship (AD 313), the period of one hundred and ten years had elapsed and they ought to have kept up the traditional festival. By neglecting it, matters were bound to come to their present unhappy state.

Incidentally, you say that you will be seeing Ridley next month. Does this mean that you will be seeing Prof. Ridley in person or that you will then be able to consult his translation? Either way, there is something in his edition that puzzles me. At the bottom of some pages there are passages, some short, others quite long, that are marked with asterisks. They seem to be additional to the main text but I can find no explanation for them. Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) know or can you find out what they are?

[antiochus]

Renatus wrote:
Zos. 2. 1-7 deals with the origins of the Secular Games and their attendant ceremonies and, as I read it and Ridley's notes, they commenced some time after the founding of the city (Ridley suggests possibly 348 BC).

The correct time should be 333 BC. However, the Romans are very confused about how long a saeculum should be as there are three methods for determining the time frame of a saeculum. It is Augustus that gets the Secular Games back on serve.

Renatus wrote:
I will give you the whole of 2. 7:

Thank you for doing this, your time and effort is much appreciated.

Renatus wrote:
Incidentally, you say that you will be seeing Ridley next month. Does this mean that you will be seeing Prof. Ridley in person or that you will then be able to consult his translation?

I will be seeing him in person. Professor Ridley has been involved with my research since 2007. I guess that means he likes to waste his time helping me with my crackpot theories.

Renatus wrote:
Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) know or can you find out what they are?

I will email him. Just give me a list.

[Renatus]

I will email him. Just give me a list.

Thank you for that. There are lots of them but I assume that they come from an alternative text or something similar. Anyway, if you mention that they are the passages marked with asterisks at the foot of pages, I am sure he will know what you mean.

[antiochus]

Today, after spending some weeks sorting through all the references concerning the numbers for the Late Roman army, and also compiling the various names for some of these units, then doing a comparison with the Strategicon, I am now very confident about ascertaining the size of a Roman legion.

I was right in the middle of writing about how the lack of information makes it impossible to reach a firm conclusion, and therefore preparing to end the book on this note when after going back over the numbers looking for a reference, I noticed something that made me hit the calculator once again. It's not just about numbers; it has also revealed something about the writing style of Zosimus.

I was once told that if your research is correct, insights shall follow. If your research is incorrect, you will always be defending it. To those who think my Pythagorean research is the work of a crackpot, it still keeps working and now my Pythagorean research also helps to uncover the organisation of the Late Roman legion. I just did not realise for this period the Romans adjusted the system so as to change the Pthagorean ratio in order to conform to their time frame. So they have abandoned the 3:2 ratio (the perfect fifth), which if you read in Plato's Timeaus, is associated with the song of the sirens, the Romans are now working on the octave plus the additional time since Augustus. I have read about this but did not realise the significants of what I was reading. In the Pythagorean comos, the octave ends with the planet Saturn, which corresponds with the age of Augustus (the Golden Age and Saturn). So at this point the octave has ended (756,000 stadia). As there is no twelve step program or manual telling me what to do and how to use the Roman Pythagorean system, it has been a matter of learn as I go.

In the end it is about taking the Vegetius legion and applying the new ratio.