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07-14-2004, 11:31 PM

(oops...accidentally erased the first part of this message, including the URL for the swatch! My abject apologies, Lee, and can you put the URL back in?...-Richard) 
 
I recently acquired a copy of the book by Lillian M. Wilson, "The Roman Toga" wherein there's an illustration of what she claims to be the correct shade, garnet she calls it: 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=richsc@romanarmytalk>RichSC</A> at: 7/20/04 9:26 pm

07-15-2004, 02:12 AM

This was discussed a while back lee...possibly on one of the Great Tunic War threads....how clavi were worn in our century, but the senatorial purple was more of a maroon colour, because of what the dye was based on I believe. Cool stuff eh? 
 
Speaking of purple, i'd kill for some good grape juice right now. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

07-15-2004, 03:09 PM

Neuralmancer, or is it Lee? 
 
First, let me congratulate you on aquiring this out-of-print monograph. It is harder and harder to find. If you don't mind my asking, what did you pay? I know how expensive mine was. 
 
Second, Purpura. In "Roman Toga" gives that one color swatch. Her other monograph, published a dozen or so years later called "The Clothing of the Roman People," has a frontispiece of the varieties of hues that the purpura mollusk can produce--all the way from a burnt orange to a blueish "imperial" purple. What we moderns think of as "purple" is really the hardest and most expensive to produce imperial variety. I use plum ("deep plum" or a reddish purple) colored dyes and strips for my own reconstructions, which figure toward the middle of Wilson's reconstructed range of hues. 
 
To the other matters: (I had to have a female seamstress explain much of the vocabulary to me): "napless" refers to a lack of fuzziness. "Pliable flannel" means tightly woven with small threads for a smooth surface...wool. Most wool flannel in the US is pretty nappy. I had to order my flannel from Milan via a commercial fabric store who had personal connections in the garment industry. I've never yet been able to find anythin close stateside since, but I'm still looking. 
 
I hope this helps. Please let me know if anything wlse comes up. 
 
Wade Heaton 
[email protected] 
www.togaman.com

07-15-2004, 03:45 PM

I've requested a sample of the white flannel sold by M. J. Cahn. I'll post a picture whenever I receive it and you can tell me whether it's appropriate. Matt, would you and the other guys from Legio XXX be interested in a group order for toga wool? 
 
I probably paid too much for the book, a tad over $200 plus shipping. It was already in the states, so I passed on some cheaper copies residing on the other side of the pond.

07-15-2004, 05:08 PM

Sorry for the miscommunication. Wool fiber is pretty fuzzy; when spun into thread, it retains some of that anyway. A flannel is a simple "single thread over-single thread under" weave; as opposed to twill, which has a diagonal run (I called my seamstress before I responded to this.) 
What Wilson is talking about, and I found out by experimenting, is that a smooth finished fabric, like linen or synthetics, won't have enough surface friction to stay folded in layers all by itself. If the toga is properly sized (and even though Wilson's 'units' can seem pretty complicated, they actually work perfectly) and the weight is balanced fore'n'aft, tucked and folded deep under the umbo across the back, it will stay on without pinning and as long as the wearer keeps the spine straight and the shoulders square. 
All wool is a little fuzzy. 
What I was trying to say is that most of the commercially available flannel I've been able to find, even the thinnest bolt of flannel, is fuzzier than what I got from Italy. It works pretty well, but the difference between my big imperial toga and all my other versions and sizes (American factory stuff), even the thinnest grade, looks and handles differently. The audience can see the difference. Mine is woven so thin that a single layer is semitransparent, so layers of folds lie flat and look like the statuary models. 
I'll be interested in your results too, since we're upgrading and expanding the show for next year in August. If the stuff is good, I might want to throw in with some others on cost. 
What you paid for the book sounds about right. I bought mine as a birthday treat a few years ago for $185 plus shipping. 
Good luck, keep in touch 
WH

07-15-2004, 05:37 PM

I dunno Lee. None of us "soldiers" wore togas. Only senatorial rankers. 
 
It would depend on the cost, then factor in exchange and such. We still need to get the guys white tunica. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

07-15-2004, 07:19 PM

I'm not sure about regular miles never wearing togas. Isn't there written evidence for legions ordering large numbers of togas? Isn't it true, that off-duty, a roman citizen, and of course legionaires were citizens, in order to do business in the local forum, had to wear a toga? It seems then that a toga needs to be part of the "legionaire kit" and I'm not sure that a white tunica is required. 
 
Back to the subject of the material, as Wilson puts it, "a moderate nap" translates to a light or modest degree of fuzziness. A "pliable flannel" then is a [somewhat thin?] tight flannel with a moderate amount of fuzziness, some nap, but not too nappy as Togaman puts it. I can't wait to see the sample that I've requested.

Caius Fabius · 07-15-2004, 09:25 PM

I actually have this book on disk. I scanned each page in jpeg format, and color-corrected the swath of purple to match the one in the book. It is several pages long and has lovely photographs and line drawings, as well as formula for the sizing of your toga. I provided a copy of this book to "Rich SC" and "La Wren's Nest". as well as some other re-enactors. I think the work is in the public domain, but since I am only reproducing it for educational purposes, and not selling it for profit I hope I am not breaking any laws.

07-15-2004, 09:36 PM

I had the occasion a while ago to actually see real purple pigment, made with the murex shellfish, like in the old days. 
A friend of mine bought it in Morocco, for another friend of mine who's a painter. And like in the old days it costs its own weight in gold.. 
But I was given a chance to see the color, or rather colors, applied on paper. 
And it doesn't look like anywhere near the color shown over there. 
The one I saw begins with a pale blueish hue pulling towards turqoise and as you add pigment it turns greenish blue, then darker blue, or green, depending on the angle you look at it. It is really strange. I guess this thing catches light in a unique way. 
The pigment itself, in powder form, is pale blue. 
But basically it's more blueish/greenish tones than reddish. However this moroccan pigment is made with the atlantic species of the murex, not the mediterranean one, so it may be different from what the ancients used. 
Whatever, it's definitely a color, or hue? that I'd never seen before. And honestly I don't really like it.. 
And BTW you can see soldiers in togas on the pedestal of the antonine column, performing the decursio. The horse riders. 
Riding without stirrups wrapped up in a toga must be a rare treat.. 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 7/15/04 11:43 pm

07-20-2004, 12:07 AM

I received the samples: 
 
66.66.131.145/woolflannel.jpg 
 
The two samples aren't much different, #6040 is a tad heavier than 44004. The textures are about the same. You can almost see through both samples, more so with 44004. The prices are $9.50/yard for 44004 and $9.00/yard for 6040 for 50 yards minimum. Both are priced $13.00/yard for lessor quantities. For a roman toga which is preferable, or are both equally good? Also, upon reading Lillian Wilson's book, which type of toga would you recommend for an average citizen of the late 1st/early 2nd century?

07-20-2004, 05:08 PM

Hi Lee, 
 
I can't really tell so much from such a close up, but the cards really helped give perspective. The smaller thread size if 4404 looked better. The real test is the finger test: does it fold easily. The wool will be nappy enough; what Wilson was taliking about was to avoid "slick" fabics that slide around. The whole art of toga folding is that the "accordian folds" at the shoulder (in the "umbo") determine every fold and drape of the entire garment. The thinner the cloth, the finer and more varied the folds. I know it's hard from a small swatch because there's inlikely to be enough weight to really tell. 
 
I'm working on a new section of the website in August with new photos on "how to fold a toga" that I've learned from my experiments; it will be posted as soon as we do a new photo shoot. 
 
As to which toga: The classic Imperial toga with its deep overfold sinus is that period which you ask about. The republican and Ara Pacis sizes are smaller, but would have have accomplished the same goal during those periods. Pages 64-65 is the pattern and the "IV. Large Imperial Toga" chart on page 122 is the sizing chart. This give the wearer the appropriate dignitas and gravitas. The later into the 2nd Cent. one looks, the larger and deeper the sinus hangs. My demonstration toga is that pattern and I've learned to fold it in three slightly different periods. (Though in practice, if the umbo isn't secure and the material starts sliding, the period will change without the wearer doing anything.) As long as it doesn't fall off. 
 
The only real way to tell is to do it and find out how it behaves when its made. Be aware that at first, the fabric may fight you. After a few wearings, it should get soft enough to handle easily and keep its folds more readily. There really is a kind of break in period, like shoes. 
 
I'm interested to know how it works. 
 
Wade 
[email protected] 
www.togaman.com

**richsc** · 07-20-2004, 07:27 PM

My only point (before I so clumsily butchered Lee's post) was that the book 'Roman Toga' was $200 on Abebooks. Any cheap copies out there? Legio XX 
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo

Caius Fabius · 07-20-2004, 11:52 PM

Cheap Copy? Rich, did you ever look at the CD I sent you? You got a free copy. The CD from Roman Army Tour also had a file marked Toga or something, which has the whole book. Unless you gave that copy away.....? "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

07-21-2004, 02:20 AM

Checking out Abebooks is how I found my copy. I did not know that someone had a CD. Just as well, I like having a real book in my hands. 
 
I did some calculations and for the Ara Pacis toga I figure that I need about 15 yards of material (I'm 6'2" tall and have a 40" waist).

**richsc** · 07-21-2004, 10:42 AM

Shows how often I check my CD collection! Thanks for reminding me! Legio XX 
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo

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