Classical leather tanning

[Dan Howard]

Oil-cured is a possibility.

[Martin Moser]

And over-ambitious treatment by conservators another ...

[Crispianus]

This shoe is fish oil cured elk(see the pic) with the grain on, in effect whatever leather you produce you remove the top layer in the process what you see as the grain is the impression of the hair follicles which gives the impression of the original surface but I really don't know if that's the case with this... wild skins can be heavily scared from ticks and this one was and I think the grain would normally be removed to create a smooth scar free finish, a number of skin shoes are done with the flesh side outside maybe for this reason,

[attachment=11013]ShoeJutlandfemalesmall.jpg[/attachment]

This leather lightens considerably with age and drys out somewhat but not so much that its becomes stiff except when repeatedly soaked with water and left to dry out, its proved perfect for making a variety of primitive shoes from the bronze age to early medieval largely because of its extreme flexibility...

About the sandal from Thebes, it didn't look like it had been over treated more likely the other way and does have a slight translucent appearance (which reminds me of a worn pair of the above skin shoes) what really impressed me with this piece though was the sheer quantity of the extremely fine stitching.... and I'm not easily impressed.

I guess it might be time for experiments....

[Dan D'Silva]

Very nice. Would you say that in practical terms, this means reenactors for early periods could justifiably use soft grained leathers like commercial buckskin?

[Crispianus]

"Would you say that in practical terms, this means reenactors for early periods could justifiably use soft grained leathers like commercial buckskin?"

I see no reason why not, we are rather limited on what's generally commercially available but personally I wouldn't go with chrome tan and would rather see natural tanned or cured leathers used...

[Dan D'Silva]

Well, definitely, the real deal would be preferable. It's just that it costs so much more, and given how few people share my particular field of interest in reenacting, I'd be willing to set the bar lower if it meant fewer would be discouraged by the price.

What I mean is that if we had, say, ten people thinking they might like to go to Marathon 2015 or Thermopylae 2021 as Persian archers, but requiring period tannage for the leather of their gorytoi would make doing so too expensive for half of them, I'd prefer to say chrome-tan would be acceptable as long as it's similar in appearance and properties.

[Crispianus]

I can understand the problem, perhaps a ten foot rule is in order.... if it looks fine from that distance its ok....

On another note here's a Persian shoe from a sculpture I came across I think its a mid 2nd century BC Greek sculpt of a Persian warrior in battle, but I'm fairly confident that these didn't change that much as there is very similar styled surviving shoes from Dura.... notice the thick sole and semi circular cut out for the lace....


[attachment=11018]PersianShoe1small.jpg[/attachment]

[Dan D'Silva]

Very nice. Indeed I'd also draw comparisons to ones seen at Persepolis and worn by Parthians on the Arch of Septimius Severus, which would make it a very enduring style. But the apparent side openings give me pause, I hadn't noticed them elsewhere.

[Crispianus]

The side "openings" are probably partially stitched or laced overlapping seams, it doesn't seem to be that unusual for this type of shoe where there is tongue, either the tongue is part of the front piece as in this case or its a separate piece stitched/laced on to a whole upper, there would always be at least one seam on the side, most likely on the inside of the foot where it wouldn't be visible or would only show as a line if at all.....
There are no details to see here, but if I was to make it it would be a as turn shoe... it would be possible.

I could do with some really good images though of the feet of the figures from Persepolis and elsewhere they seem difficult to find...

A pic of a frieze from Persepolis (I believe) taken off the web and enhanced to show the details of the feet, this type occurs in several different images.... although there's a number of variations in style it seems:

Persian Immortal, Features: what looks like three knotted laces hanging down, just forward of these is what looks like a join, at the front of the ankle is a curved section possibly the tongue sticking above the shoe, no sole is visible.... from what I can see of other images this is no exception but its also not an exclusive style for a Persian... at least two other possible styles were noted...

[attachment=11026]PersiansPersepolisshoes1.jpg[/attachment]

The same frieze:
Mede? Features: these appear to be wearing sandals with a common arrangement of straps for a sandal, on the top of the foot there should be a strap passing between the toes.... but this isnt visible...

[attachment=11025]MedePersepolissandal.jpg[/attachment]

A comparison with the Immortals shoes, these are from Egypt and the dating is not very certain but appear to be pre Roman perhaps 3rd cent BC, apparently of foreign style and are turn shoes with multiple knotted laces....

http://www.livescience.com/27464-ancient...vered.html

reconstruction image:
http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/03...1361817805

Pattern:
http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/03...1361817873


Any way just my 2 cents ;-)

[Dan D'Silva]

The side "openings" are probably partially stitched or laced overlapping seams, it doesn't seem to be that unusual for this type of shoe where there is tongue, either the tongue is part of the front piece as in this case or its a separate piece stitched/laced on to a whole upper, there would always be at least one seam on the side, most likely on the inside of the foot where it wouldn't be visible or would only show as a line if at all.....

I'd always thought of the type of shoe from the Alexander Sarcophagus as similar to Plains moccasins and Hedeby shoes, with one-piece uppers having single seams at the back and inside respectively. But I'll have to go reexamine the Sarcophagus pics now. What surprised me about the first ones you posted is that they seem to have a line on both sides, which would indicate that the vamp and heel counter are separate pieces. Actually the cheap little moc boots I got for Marathon 2011 are constructed this way (though they're additionally made with an upper and lower piece for the vamp).

A pic of a frieze from Persepolis (I believe) taken off the web and enhanced to show the details of the feet, this type occurs in several different images.... although there's a number of variations in style it seems:[/attachment]

This style weighed on my mind for a long time until stumbling across the finds from Egypt at Orientalism and the Age of Steam; prior to then I just didn't understand how the straps worked. They're VERY important because in Persian art they seem to be requisite for wear with the formal robe.

The same frieze:
Mede? Features: these appear to be wearing sandals with a common arrangement of straps for a sandal, on the top of the foot there should be a strap passing between the toes.... but this isnt visible...

Um... damn. It never occurred to me that these could be sandals. I'd always thought of them as an early version of the Sarcophagus ones.

[Crispianus]

This is probably going to be a surprise but in a good way, the red and green shoes from Thebes that I mentioned earlier have a similar seam to that on your moccasins, although its a whip stitch or appears to be, the upper being attached in the same way as your moccasins, its not clear if the lower part is complete or is only a strip stitched between the layers of the sole.... the only problem is their dated to 1600BC....

The Formal nature of the Immortal shoe I'm not so sure about as if that was the case surely all would have the straps and as I said there are several variations, what appeared to be a slip on and another style with a central ridge neither seemed to have any ties, but I really do need to look at more images....

[Dan D'Silva]

[attachment=11018]PersianShoe1small.jpg[/attachment]

Ivor, do you mind if I repost this photo at XMFM?

[Crispianus]

No problem, though it is from a book called "Skulpter des Hellenismus" the image is a detail the original shows the full figure :wink:


Collected as many good images as I could find...

1.Features: 3 knotted straps or straps acting as toggles, probably a turn shoe made from Buff leather, two piece upper with a tongue.

[attachment=11042]ApadanaPalacepersepolisImmortal1.jpg[/attachment]

This looks like Brain/fat or oil cured to me, as an alternation a light buff coloured Nubuck might do or any thing similar.

[attachment=11043]childrens-shoes-detenhanced.jpg[/attachment]

2. Features same construction as 1 but has a ridge possibly formed by continuous lacing.

[attachment=11044]WarriorsPersepolisImmortal1.jpg[/attachment]

3. Feature: not a sandal same construction as 1 and 2 but the quarters are shorter, a tongue is visible in this pic, the "strap" to the edge of the quarter may be a reinforcement, single knotted strap at the front of the ankle.

[attachment=11045]PersianPersepolisstair.jpg[/attachment]

I'm fairly convinced this is the same general type as 3.

[attachment=11046]PersianShoe1small.jpg[/attachment]

4. this Slip on style turn shoe reminds me of medieval types.

[attachment=11047]AssyrianorPersianwithbullPersepolis.jpg[/attachment]

5. Short boot features: ankle closure with multiple strap tie ending in a single bowed knot, has a tongue again most likely turn shoe construction...

[attachment=11048]PersiansBabyloniansPersepolis.jpg[/attachment]

[Dan D'Silva]

Thanks! I like the last style a lot; I think it's associated with Syrians.

I've also noticed that in the Hellenistic sculpture it appears that the straps don't go around the ankle as I thought from studying just the Persepolis images, but actually they look to be be laced like oxfords or chukkas, except with just one pair of eyelets. Regarding the "straps" around the tops of the Median shoes as edging around the quarter really makes sense of the otherwise strange way it branches down the sides.

I'll attach my current stopgap shoes. The first is the modification I made while regarding the top band as the lace itself; the second would be in line with the two-piece construction if I understand it correctly.

[Dan D'Silva]

Here are some of the shoes from the Alexander Sarcophagus. The first one shoes what could be a faint ridge running down the side, though I'm not at all certain. The second is all the ones from the color restoration. These are shown with a band the same color as the front laces encircling the ankle and reinforced my initial belief that the band around the top was the lace itself.

But if the laces are run through single eyelets in a chukka style rather than around the top moccasin-style, reinforcing the edges of the quarters would be a good idea as well because they will be under much more strain and could tear if not reinforced.