Questions and the request for most humble opinions of creating a 64 A.D. Roman Officer Impression.
I have circled the area in read that I am questioning.
These two rows (On this statue) appear to be connected to the Cuirass plate (To me anyhow.) Do they appear that way to you?
In embarking on making my officer impression, knowing that these statues are really all that we have to go by, <-----am I correct in that thought? Or are there other resources?
If the burden of proof is on us as individuals… are statues acceptable? I realize that they are all different. No two are alike. I know that it is an "Artists" interpretation of what they look like. But this stature being in Bronze, and from the first century a.d., In your humble opinions… is it the closest we have to the real thing for a "ROMAN" impression… Not a Greek. I realize this is an emperor and not an officer.
My thoughts are… as I begin to move towards certain parts of the construction… to attach plates similar to these with a leather band. The top whoopedee do Ptreygaes would be a leather band with brass appliqués. The second row would also be a leather band with the hinged metal plates attached to it. These would be attached to both the front and back cuirass plates.
The longer straight Ptreygaes that are not pictured on this statue but on others with the fringe on the bottoms, would actually be a part of my Subarmalis.
WIthout any other references or resources out there that I have found other then statues… I would like peoples opinions as to if this is logical enough thinking for a 64 a.d. Officer Impression.
Although there really is no right or wrong answer here, from my hours of studying various statues/depictions of Greco-roman warriors and officers, I'd say that this is supposed to be an extremely ornate (read parade-only) panoply, likely to have either only existed for celebratory occasions, or to have never existed at all. The reason I suggest this is because the second row of ptyruges that you refer to here almost certainly seem to be depicting objects made of metal. I would agree with you that the first row of smaller "tongue ptyruges" are usually depicted in such a way that I believe they were leather extensions of an inner lining to the cuirass, with metal appliqués applied such as lions/gorgon etc. in this case however, everything seems to be depicted as metal.
It is your choice, and I think this is an interesting project, but if you are trying to base your impression off of one statue, I think I'd search for a different one that depicts a panoply more in line with what we think could have existed. I.e. Something more in line with the Augustus of prima porta, or something like that.
Patrick, I also am really interested in someday doing such a project. I'll look through anything I've found and try to post here...might be a little time, but I'll try to post again as soon as possible.
Quote:Here you go, from my big collection of Lorica musculata pictures:
This is getting off-topic, but I noticed that a number of them have facing winged quadrapeds, griffin-like creatures. One has them each side of a tree. This seems to me to be related to the important Middle Eastern design of the tree of life flanked by two "sphinxes", or as they actually are, cherubim. I'd be very interested in seeing other derivations of this design if anyone has seen them. I'm rather interested in finding things related to the attached shield from Olympia, which looks to me as though it has West Syrian/Phoenician origins, and may have been modified in the Roman period with the addition of an umbo. Maybe.
Robert Mason D.Phil (Oxon)
World Cultures, Royal Ontario Museum, 100 Queen's Park, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 2C6, Canada.
Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, University of Toronto, 4 Bancroft Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1C1, Canada.
E-mail: [email protected]
Yes Robert, griffins are quite a common decoration in officers' cuirasses it seems!
Griffins were the mythological animals attributed to Nemesis, goddess of revenge. Also gladiators' favourite deity.
But I have no other information about why they were so often depicted on loricae musculatae of Roman officers.
Griffins were popular mythological creatures in ancient times, with Romans, Greeks and Mesopotamian peoples etc.
Those cherubim should have human heads, like sphinxes, isn't that so?
Quote:Yes Robert, griffins are quite a common decoration in officers' cuirasses it seems!
Griffins were the mythological animals attributed to Nemesis, goddess of revenge. Also gladiators' favourite deity.
But I have no other information about why they were so often depicted on loricae musculatae of Roman officers.
Griffins were popular mythological creatures in ancient times, with Romans, Greeks and Mesopotamian peoples etc.
Those cherubim should have human heads, like sphinxes, isn't that so?
Yes indeed they would have had human heads. I'm trying to find parallels for the shield, but none of such a late date.
Robert Mason D.Phil (Oxon)
World Cultures, Royal Ontario Museum, 100 Queen's Park, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 2C6, Canada.
Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, University of Toronto, 4 Bancroft Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1C1, Canada.
E-mail: [email protected]
Hi Robert. I know its not for an officer but a centurion but what immediately comes to mind is the Lauersfort phalerea with the two griffens merging together at the human head.
Quote:Hi Robert. I know its not for an officer but a centurion but what immediately comes to mind is the Lauersfort phalerea with the two griffens merging together at the human head.
Thanks for that, Jay, very interesting object. The original prototypes for these creatures, the lammasu/cherubim/etc are guardians depicted in pairs, protecting the entrance to palaces/temples/God/Tree of Life/etc; while the Greek sphinx guarded the gate of Thebes alone. Are these creatures typically shown in this protective context in the Roman world, or is this forum (quite reasonably) biased towards military finds?
Robert Mason D.Phil (Oxon)
World Cultures, Royal Ontario Museum, 100 Queen's Park, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 2C6, Canada.
Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, University of Toronto, 4 Bancroft Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1C1, Canada.
E-mail: [email protected]
