The Ghost Cavalry of Gondole

[John Conyard]

Alanus, would it be possible to have some specific references for "large" horses excavated from the Scythian kurgans?

Thanks in advance,

JC

[Alanus]

Alanus, would it be possible to have some specific references for "large" horses excavated from the Scythian kurgans?
Thanks in advance,
JC

Moi, is your Avatar horse about 14 hands? Just a guess, but as you pointed out-- taller is not equated with better. I was talking about "large" horses developed to carry a cataphract, along with his armor and weapons. We know from archaeological finds that 2 sizes of war horse existed, a large one for heavily armored cavalrymen and a smaller one used mainly by archers.

For John, here are a few references:

Professor Anthony, a knowledgeable horse person, discusses the earliest domesticated horses, c 2,500 BC, and notes that steppe examples were larger than Western European ones. "Horses from Dereivka, in the central steppes of Ukraine were bigger... 75% stood between 133 and 137cm at the withers, or between 13 and 14 hands. The horses of Botai in northern Kazakhastan were even bigger, often over 14 hands." (David Anthony, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language, 2007, pp. 202-203.)

I mentioned the elite warrior's horses in the Altai. From Jettmar, we find this on the Pazyryk examples buried from the 6th to 4th centuries BC. Here are the horses from Kurgan I, "There are ten geldings, which were evidently treated with elaborate care and had a strong tradition of breeding behind them." Karl Jettmar, Art of The Steppes, 1967, p. 122) Anywhere from 5 to 22 horses (in 2 breeds) were buried with their various owners at Pazyryk, and we get more from Barkova, "Tall (more than five feet), well-proportioned, swift horses, similar to the modern Akhal-Teke' breed, were buried with highly decorated trappings..." (Luidmila Barkova, Section III, The Golden Deer of Eurasia, 2001, p. 244). The same horses are mentioned by Brzezinski and Mielczarek, "... the Scythians also used a quality breed averaging 15 hands (150 cm) and similar to the modern Russian Akhal-Teke-- though this was confirmed mainly to noble burials." (The Sarmatians, 2002, p. 35)

As I mentioned, these larger mounts were developed specifically for heavy cavalry use. Later, in the 3rd to 2nd centuries BC, these same ideal cavalry horses were sought by the Chinese, "When the Wusun came with their horses, which were of excellent breed, he [Emperor Wu-Di] named them 'heavenly horses.' Later, however, he obtained the blood-sweating horses from Dayuan [from the Yue-chi or Tokarians], which were even hardier." (Sima Qian, Records of the Grand Historian, Watson trans., 1993, p. 240)

In the early 2nd century AD, Emperor Hadrian followed Wu-Di's suit, receiving his favored warhorse from the king of the Roxolani. The incredibly long history of horse breeding by steppe peoples preceded large Persian and Roman mounts by over two millennia. The frozen kurgans at Pazyryk are the most famous examples, but sophisticated breeding extended throughout Eurasia, and these horses were a major income for the steppe tribes. Some Wusun nobles owned herds of upwards to 5,000.

The antiquated idea that steppe people made their living solely by rapine is a hard myth to break. They were horse breeders and tin merchants. It wasn't my intent to hijack this thread, but the question was asked and answered.

Today, the hardy and short-necked [V]Andelusian breed appears as a prime, if not undocumented, example. However, modern breeds with a "white-spotted" color strain do appear to come from a steppe heritage. Here is an illustration of Emperor T'ai-Tsung's personal Heavenly Horse, a goodly-rugged animal complete with crenelated mane, a steppe innovation:

[attachment=9981]heavenlyhorse025-1.jpg[/attachment]

[Michael Kerr]

Not much I can add to what Alanus said as he covered it pretty well.
Although the Han fought a war for the Ferghana horses it seems that they only left with 30 horses of the famed breed, and some of them died on the trip back to the capital, as the locals threatened to destroy their entire herd if the Han persisted in their attack of the Ferghana Valley. So even though claimed as a great victory it was more than likely an honourable draw. These would have been the personal property of Wu-ti , the emperor for his burial so more than likely the Han probably restocked their cavalry forces with the more numerous and hardy horses of the Wusun who may have been of similar stock to the Ferghana breed. Horses for brides and silks. The Han needed better quality horses for their cavalry to try and match it with the Xiong-nu horsemen who were a constant threat to the east.
Link below to a google book site of Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron Age Horsemen. This book seems out of print and extremely rare but pages 55-57 on the link pretty well cover how the Scythians coveted their horses. So most of their horses were probably small but they did breed bigger ones 150cm to !60Cm to the withers. So between 14 and 15 hands. Book below states that the bigger horses were probably bought from other tribes who bred them in a more suitable climate to that of the Altai ranges, so the people of the Altai must have been traders as well as herders, and going by the riches found in their tombs they must have been successful traders at that. So Wusun and Ferghana or whoever inhabitated 5th-3rd Century BC Kazakhstan are good candidates for sources of quality horses for Pazyryk traders as they had suitably climates for horse breeding.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZByd...es&f=false

Some of the Pazyryk horses were extremely well preserved when discovered as water seeped in and froze the corpses and have yielded considerable information including stomach contents, skin, coat and musculature. Most of the horses were smaller breeds, for the common herders but there were a few which were much bigger and probably of a breed similar to the Achal-Tekke type and obviously owned by the richest of the inhabitants. The larger horses found, were mostly geldings aged between 18-22 years although there was one mare found in the burial site. So although religious, it seems the Scythians were practical in that they sacrificed their older horses, who were either past or near the end of their working lives. Image below.

[attachment=9992]Pazyrykhorses2.jpg[/attachment]

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Alanus]

We are looking at a trade route that went from Pazyryk, a center for tin mines to China where tin was still used in bi-metal swords. Likewise, Chinese silks and mirrors were traded up to the Altai. The tin and copper mines of the Altai were the reason the Saka settled there, then controlling local production and export. Here is an expensive (repro) Chinese sword incorporating a large amount of tin.

[attachment=10001]tq48981ba6.jpg[/attachment]

Wusun horses from the Ili Valley (southwest of the Altai) probably went to both Pazyryk and China. At one time, China purchased 1,000 cavalry horses from the "barbarians," and they also "traded" high-ranking noble women and princesses. The Indo-Iranian elite's practice of marrying Chinese nobility continued into the era of the Alans. Persian goods were also found in the Altai kurgans. Here is a yurt wall hanging from a frozen Pazyryk tomb. This nobleman wears a handle-bar moustache, popular with the Saka and Sarmatians, and the horse is saddled. :-)

[attachment=9997]SakaHorsemanPazyryk300BCE.jpg[/attachment]

[Vindex]

Alan - I'm quite tall, but the mare in the avatar is 15.1hh

"So most of their horses were probably small but they did breed bigger ones 150cm to !60Cm to the withers. So between 14 and 15 hands."

Michael - quick rule of thumb, the 150cm = 15 hands (just take off the 0) so your 160cm horse is nearly 16hhs not 15hh (15.3hh to be precise)!

HANDS METERS
12.0 1.2192 (121cm etc)
12.1 1.2446
12.2 1.27
12.3 1.2954
13.0 1.3208
13.1 1.3462
13.2 1.397
13.3 1.397
14.0 1.4224
14.1 1.4478
14.2 1.4732
14.3 1.4986
15.0 1.524
15.1 1.5494
15.2 1.5748
15.3 1.6002
16.0 1.6256

EDIT: Sorry - the formatting keeps disappearing every time I submit it!

[Alanus]

Moi,

Actually, you faked me out. I thought you were riding a slightly smaller horse, although my "15 hands" is certainly larger than a pony.
Thanks for such a simple measuring method. :-)