Casualty counts in late antiquity.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for references to battles where the number of casualties are listed. I'd especially appreciate ones from battles that were considered to be close victories or stalemates. I've only found one right now (been looking for about an hour) and that is Hydatius who lists the 8000 men slain at Mons Colubrarius (the number is a little high, but plausible if you account for the wounded).

If you have some examples, please provide a reference. Thanks everyone!

[D B Campbell]

I'm looking for references to battles where the number of casualties are listed.

Is Julian too early for you? The battle at Ctesiphon in AD 363 springs to mind, where Ammianus claims 70 Roman casualties to 2,500 Persians (Amm. 24.6.15). Zosimus' version (3.25.7) has 75 Romans to 2,500 Persians. (The imbalance is usually thought to be improbable.)

[AMELIANVS]

At Argentoratum 357:Roman death acording to Ammianus:243,German death:6000 counted on the battlefield and unknown number drowned in the river.
Libanios claimed Germans lost 8000 man.

Battle of Catalaunian fields from 366-Romans 1200 death and other 200 wounded,German death:6000 and 4000 wounded.

Battle of Argentovaria 378-German death:Ammianus mentioned over 5000

Siege of Amida 359-Persian death:30 000 Persian death, Roman death unknown but certainly very severe casualties.City was defended by six Legions and some other military units and citizens.Most were slain or captured to go into Persia.Legio V parthica was probably completely destroyed here.
At one night sortie of Gallic legionaries who were transferred to the East for punishment because of their former support of usurper Magnentius,they lost 400 men.

Zosimus mentions numbers relatively often but they are mostly very unreliable.

Battle of Mursa- Zonaras claims Magnentius lost upwards of two-thirds of his troops, and Constantius about half of his army, for a total of well over 50,000 casualties,so probably Magnentius 25 000 death and Constantius 30 000.Almost every late Roman author if mentioning this battle mentions also enormous death tool for Mursa which severely damaged the state.

Many more numbers are preserved for 6th century campaigns and battles.Tell me if you are interrested in it and I'll post it here.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

6th century is just as applicable, thanks guys.

That one between Magnentius and Constantine is interesting, as it was a "close victory" and probably applicable.

The numbers from the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields (366) are also interesting, as they are plausible numbers.

@D.B. Campbell

The imbalance is improbable, but if you were to bump up the Roman death toll then the Persian casualty count is possible.

[Robert Vermaat]

Siege of Amida 359-Persian death:30 000 Persian death, Roman death unknown but certainly very severe casualties.City was defended by six Legions and some other military units and citizens.Most were slain or captured to go into Persia.Legio V parthica was probably completely destroyed here.
At one night sortie of Gallic legionaries who were transferred to the East for punishment because of their former support of usurper Magnentius,they lost 400 men.

Ammianus put the total at 20-25000. That's 7 legions (including equites indigenae, two units of superventores, praeventores and comites sagittarii) together with the inhabitants and refugees (XIX.2.14).

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I've been looking for other examples of stalemates or close victories, I've found Mursa to be the most useful so far.

[AMELIANVS]

Evan you must give me some time yet to to gather those 6th century statistics.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Sorry Pavel, I wasn't demanding them I was merely stating I have been looking for other ones too, and I have found Mursa the most useful so far.

[AMELIANVS]

Thats OK I did not understand it as demand.

I think such casualties statistics might even be a worthy topic on its own here on RAT.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

My theory is that based on other battles we could extrapolate a possible count from the Battle of Chalons.

The First step would be finding the percentage of forces killed in all engagements with over 50,000 participants that were considered close victories or stalemates, and then divide the total number slain by the total number participated, to get a percentage.

Secondly you would have to average all of the percentages of said engagements.

Then you would have to apply it to the force count from the Battle of the Catalaunian plains. (about 60,000 Gallo-Romans vs. 70,000 Hun Confederation)

[Macedon]

I do not think that it would be wise to make such assumptions, Evan. Losses are dependent on too many factors to be able to suggest a number. Criticizing given numbers is acceptable but proposing them, in my opinion, is not. Why would you want to go to such debatable lengths anyways? Sounds like an unnecessary invitation for severe criticism.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hmm... excellent point. I'll cut that part out, but casualty counts is still a useful discussion in General.

[Macedon]

Of course

[Diocle]

May I suggest you to use the casualty count with great care, Evan?

You know, even about WWII the discussion is still absolutely opened: more than one million of dead on the Eastern front is not something so small ... but still the Russains and many other historians have very differents views about the matter ....

What I mean is that the 'casualty-count' in war it is eminently a 'political matter', so, be cautious ..... you're walking on a minefield!

[AMELIANVS]

Some numbers for Lazic war:
Second siege of fort Petra 548-Persians:1000 death,300 wounded not capable of other fighting(but Persian victory).Procopios

Third siege of fort Petra(550?)ersians:1600 death,730 captured.Procopios

Battle of Archaipolis 551ersians:4000 death(3 generals,4 standarts) and 20 000(!)horses killed.Procopios

Battle of Phasis river 549-Persians:around 2000 death(Two ambush engagements were fought shortly after one another,in both around 1000 persians had fallen).Procopios.

Battle in Mountain Pass near fort Petra 548:Heroic defence of important Pass in Thermopyl style(although mentioned only very briefly)where Procopios says a small unit of 100 Romans managed to resists for some hours 30 000 strong main persian army under great general Mermeroes causing them allegedly more than 1000 fatalities before they were forced to retreat off the pass.


Siege(and battle)of fortress town of Phasis 555-556ersians allegedly lost up to 10 000 men while Romans lost no more then 200.Says Agathius(continuator of Procopius)
Both numbers are probably exaggerated but there is no doubt this was greatest defeat of the persia in this"colonial war"after which war goes in Roman favor as Persians lost their offensive potencial.Romans probably suffered similarly heavy defeat at forts Telephis and Onoguris although no specific numbers of casualities are mentioned ,only that an army of around 50 000 men(biggest force Romans had assembled in this war)was heavily decimated leaving situation for some time heavily in favor of Persia.

Many more engagmens were fought in the lazic war-These are only those bigger where some casualties numbers are mentioned.

Other wars"statistics"will follow.