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DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS · 04-13-2004, 03:10 PM

Crispus, 
this is great! I might have to forget about the Italic D and switch to a Winged Phrygian!!! ;-ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â¾ 
 
Anyway, thanks for this, it makes ALL the difference inthe world to see colour pix of the REAL thing. 
DMV DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS 
 
LEGIO IX HISPANA 
NorCal Chapter 
 
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze 
 
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.

Hibernicus · 04-13-2004, 04:13 PM

colour pics 
 
Gotta be careful about those color pics Mercatus.. in books, webpages, internet etc... for example, the Chrities pic of the not-Intercissa helmet compared to Flavius' pic on the LEG VI page... the color for whatever photgraphic reason is different... photo manipulation, different exposures, different film, varying flash, type of paper (in a book, fading,deterioration etc) so many variables.... 
 
 
 
Hibernicus

FlaviusCrispus · 04-13-2004, 08:10 PM

Thanks, Mercatus, Sabatinus, Gashford et all for your kind words! 
 
Hibernicus makes a good point about color images often being untrustworthy. As someone whose career involves photographic coins and antiquities, believe me, I know how a simple thing like shifting the direction of a light can drastically altar the color balance on any object! 
 
Let me provide the circumstances of this particular photography session. I used my little Kodak easyshare, 3 megapixel digital camera, not by any means a professional unit. Julian Dendy obtained persmission from Christies to take any Guttmann pieces that interested us out of the vault-like rooms in which they were stored and move them out into the viewing gallery to photograph them. The viewing gallery at South Kensignton is a plush room with red fabric walls and an enormous skylight that covers most of the ceiling. It is designed specifically to provide a flat, natural light for the objects being viewed (usually paintings, scultures, antiquire furniture and whatnot). It was a slightly overcast day, which provided what to my eye was a perfect, flat gray natural light (most photographers view these as ideal conditions for obtaining natural shadows and coloration). I switched the flash off except for a couple of shots where we couldn't move an object out of the vault room (the Greek hoplite shield, for example, of the triple-disc Samnite cuirass). 
 
Overall, I was quite pleased with the results. I filled up one entire flash card, about 110 shots. I wish I'd had another flash card, but in any case that would have meant imposing on Christie's for another couple of hours at least. 
 
To my memory, the colors are quite true overall, at least on the three computer screens I have viewed them on so far. The "not-Intercisa" helmet was photographed close-up under direct sunlight in my case, which makes the surface look quite mottled. The Christie's catalog photo was shot in a studio under controlled lighting conditions, which produced a more even coloration. Neither is "wrong"; both give an accurate idea of what the helmet piece looks like under different conditions. In a museum, with perfectly placed spotlights, it would probably look to your eye like the Christie's photo. If you just picked it up and walked outside in daylight to look at it, it would more closely resemble my photo. 
 
In my opinion, you can trust the colors depicted on my photograph as showing what the pieces would look like in normal, slightly muted sunlight-- a "real life" look, so to speak. The Christie's catalog photos will tell you what they CAN look like under ideal lighting conditions. It's sort of like looking at your wife/girlfriend in the morning, with the light streaming through the windows onto her face, versus when she's sitting opposite you at an intimate restuarant, all dolled up. Which is the "real" her? (Hmmm, better answer that one right...) 
 
Also remember that virtually all of these objects are patinated to one degree or another, and that none of them would have looked back in Roman times as they do today. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California USA 
 
P.S. I'll probably be attending the Guttmann sale in person. Anyone care to meet up with me in London? 
 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/13/04 10:13 pm

aitor iriarte · 04-14-2004, 05:54 AM

Not me, unfortunately! 
Have fun and keep an eye on the ridge helmet, I'd wish it would not disappear into one dark vault... 
 
Aitor

Hibernicus · 04-14-2004, 02:06 PM

Good info re your pics, Flavius, thanks. 
 
One thing others might do is manipulate the photos (or any artefact photos) with a program like Photoshop.. look at them in B&W, adjust contrast, fade one color and enhance another.. sometimes interesting structural details emerge... 
 
Hibernicus

ambrosius · 04-17-2004, 11:25 AM

Crispus,Great pics! What a fantastic sword. 
 
Graham, Dan, I'd never seen a gladius tip like this before 
(and it looks like Dan is the only one who has). But I 
went straight to Michel Feugere's book 'Weapons of the 
Romans' to look for anything similar. Well, on p.127, in 
the section 'The Dagger' (Pugio), there's a line drawing 
(Fig 171 d.) called 'Dagger in encrusted scabbard from 
Leeuwen, which seems to have the same kind of tear- 
drop tip as the 'Mainz/Guttman' gladius. 
 
Now, some people describe the Mainz gladius (with its 
longer, sharper point) as being designed for opening the 
rings of 'Celtic' mail. Others suggest that it was the 
later Pompeii gladius (with its shorter, and perhaps less 
likely to bend) tip which was designed to open mail rings. 
Personally, I'd favour the Mainz, as it's more like a 
bodkin-point arrowhead than the Pompeii (which we 
know was designed to go right through mail rings) and 
would thus be more likely to burst the first ring before 
its energy was spread too thinly over the connecting 
rings (as would happen with the Pompeii). After all, 
the Mainz and Lorica Hamata went together in the early Empire, while the Pompeii and Lorica Segmentata went 
together from the 1stc. onwards. Thinking about civil 
wars between legions, one sword was designed for use 
against a particular lorica (should they face a similarly 
armed oponent) while the succesor sword (the Pompeii)was shortened, simplified and reduced in sharpness, 
probably as the legions decided that a 'body shot' was 
now no longer possible. As Matt reminds us, you should 
never try a body shot against Segmentata - I've watched a Centurion of a group (which shall remain 
nameless) who tried showing the effectiveness of one 
of his men's Segmentatas in a public display by using 
both hands to drive the point of his (Mainz) gladius into his man's greater-shoulder guards four times. The result 
was: Shoulder guards 4: Gladius 0. And the Centurion 
had to spend the next couple of minutes hammering the 
point of his Mainz flat again using the but of his Pugio! 
 
But to come back to the Pompeii form supplanting the Mainz when the Segmentata appeared, did this blunter, 
simpler blade come about because Romans realised that 
there was now no point in trying a body-shot (as with 
the preceding Hamata) and that they may as well just 
use a blunter blade and only go for the faces and throat 
of their opponent (assuming this was a civil war) as 
these were now the only unarmoured (vital) parts of the 
body? Obviously, the Pompeii was still a valid blade to 
use against an unarmoured (barbarian) enemy. 
 
Having said that, was the 'Mainz/Guttman' Pompeii blade 
a particular variant (or experiment) to try to regain the 
mail-bursting quality of the Mainz blade? And what is the 
role of the Pugion in all this? My own Deepeeka blade 
has a raised central rib, which might serve just as well 
as the teardrop tip on the 'Mainz/Guttman' or the Pugio 
in Feugere's book. Was the Pugio used specifically to 
open mail aat close range, rather than the Gladius? And 
is this why the Pugio went out of use when the legions 
rearmoured with the Segmentata? Food for thought. 
 
Ambrosius

Crispvs · 04-22-2004, 07:51 PM

Ambrosius, 
 
Two points: 
 
1) The majority of known pugiones come from first century AD contexts. As we now know that lorica segmentata was in use as early as 9BC that makes pugiones and sementata contemporary with each other. Pugiones seem to have gone out of fashion in the AD70s, when many serviceable and often apparently new daggers appear to have been thrown away, and are found only very occasionally from then until the third century, when thay reappear in large numbers in a somewhat larger form. 
 
2) My (doctor) father and (nurse) mother, when showing me the family collection of knives collected by my great uncle during his time as a special constable in Jerusalem in the 1920s, pointed out that the ribs or grooves found on most of the blades would have allowed them to be withdrawn from victims' bodies: the ribs/grooves creating channels for air to enter the wound and counteract the sucking effect which can cause a blade to stick in a wound. I believe that this is also the reason for the grooves which are to be found in most modern bayonettes. I think this is a far more likely reason for the midribs on type 'A' and 'B' Roman daggers than any purported mail puncturing ability. 
 
Crispvs

ambrosius · 07-11-2004, 07:27 PM

Ave Crispus, 
 
It sounds as though you have never actually killed 
with a gladius. (That got everyone's attention ) 
 
Yep, I grew up being told that the fuller, or groove, 
in the spine of a sword/dagger-blade was indeed a 
'blood-channel', to prevent suction on withdrawing 
after a strike, as well. 
 
But then, on reading Ewart Oakshott's 'The Archae- 
ology of Weapons', he specifically explodes that 
myth. It seems that 'blood-channels' are one of 
those things that become accepted in folklore by 
repetition. It's the kind of thing that Mike Bishop 
would call a factoid. 
 
Oakshott says their real function was twofold: 
 
Firstly, the fuller effectively reduces the cross- 
section of the blade (in a non-functional place, ie 
the spine) without affecting the thickness of either 
the cutting-edges or the point. This then reduces 
the weight of the blade, making it easier to swing 
all day, while not detracting from its ability in either 
cutting or thrusting. 
 
Secondly, it adds lateral strength to the blade, 
since the fuller, or groove, acts like the corrugation 
in sheet steel. Counter-intuitively, making the blade 
thinner in its centre section actually helps to stop it 
from bending under stress! 
 
I'd forgotten reading about that, but I was just 
reminded of it by watching a documentary about the 
history of swords by Mike Loades, the instructor in 
the use of ancient/medieval weapons. He made 
exactly the same point about the 'blood-channels', 
while testing different types of swords. 
 
I can see the raised midribs on pugios (and bronze- 
age rapiers) fulfilling the same function of adding 
stiffness to the blade. Though this would also have 
the effect of _adding_ weight to the blade, rather 
than removing it, of course. But as pugios and B.A. 
rapiers are short, this would not present a problem. 
 
Since the gladius was primarily a stabbing blade, 
and didn't carry a fuller, then suction on withdrawal 
(if you'll pardon the expression) doesn't seem to 
have been a problem. That's why I imagine that the 
addition of midribs to pugios - or to the tip of that beautiful Pompeii gladius in the Guttman collection - 
was for a specific reason. Possibly for attacking 
mail-wearing opponents rather than unarmoured 
ones, who might be dealt with using a plain diamond 
cross-section or ogival blade. 
 
Salve, Ambrosius

07-13-2004, 09:51 PM

Uhh...."Bronze-aged Rapier"??!! 
 
care to elaborate? 
 
...confuzled -ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

Crispvs · 07-14-2004, 12:23 AM

Ambrosius, 
 
I agree with you about the strengthening/weightsaving aspects of grooves and midribs on daggers but I think that if these had really been important issues for the Romans they would have included the same features on their sword blades, which they did not. 
I do not agree that they have nothing to do with the constriction of wounds and the resultant 'suction'. Given that the idea of a groove or rib acting as a solution to the difficulty of removing a blade from a constricting or sucking wound appealed to my father, who has thirty eight years experience as a doctor and who has attended numerous road accidents I cannot, for the time being, accept the idea as a factoid. Assuming that the midrib/grooves were dual functional (like so a number of other aspects of a soldier's kit) and did in fact act to allow a blade to be withdrawn, perhaps the reasons that swords did not have then were that (a) the 'spatha' is a slashing weapon and so is less likely to become stuck in a wound and (b) that the 'gladius' would require only the two to four inches at the end to enter an opponent's body to cause serious damage. This part of the blade tapers, which means it would be easier to withdraw and the fact that most of the blade would not have entered the victim's body would mean that the swordsman had more leverage to get end out with. The same leverage would not be available with a dagger. 
Would anyone with direct medical experience of wounds care to comment? 
Regarding the tip of the Guttman sword as a mail breaker, I think I remember reading that test shooting of arrows of various weights at mail shirts by the Royal Armouries had shown that mail was extremely difficult to penetrate. I would suggest therefore that the tip of this sword may have been the way it was to prevent it from bending, something my own sword point has suffered a couple of times resulting in my having to hammer it back into shape again. 
 
Crispvs Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 7/14/04 2:29 am

Gregg · 07-14-2004, 08:42 PM

Actually the Romans did use fullers on their swords, quite extensively, as can be seen on many examples from Illerup, Vimose, Nydam, and numerous other sites. I believe most can be dated to the 3rd century. 
 
I honestly don't know about grooves and midribs aiding in the removal of blades from living bodies. It would obviously be a difficult theory to test. Stabbing a dead animal carcass wouldn't do any good, as the muscles wouldn't react the same way. 
 
I've always believed the midrib on the classic pugio was a simple way to keep the blade light and fast, while also allowing it to be wide (compare the blade shape to contemporary spearheads) for more effective penetrating wounds, but strong enough to stab with effectively. Very much a combat dagger and not a multipurpose tool like many combat knives in modern times. 
 
Gregg

07-16-2004, 01:57 AM

Before I joined the Army, I was a medic in Detroit and have seen wounds caused by many types of instruments. In almost every instance, stabbing wounds tend to cause the flesh towards the center of the wound to pull apart, leaving a lozenge shaped wound. The only exception would be from an ice pick, which leaves a "dot". Both the abdominal and thoracic regions have quite a bit of gaseous space (intestinal gasses, lung space) which will freely expand and compress as needed to allow things to come and go. This added with the malleability of the soft tissues and the lubricating factor of blood, weapons would have no trouble being extracted. 
 
Now, one thing that did amaze me though. In only one instance did I treat a patient who was stabbed where the blade was not at least nearly perpendicular to the ribs and the patient received a critical wound. With that one, I saw the x-ray where the ribs were cracked and chipped allowing the point of the knife to pierce the pleura. In all others, the ribs actually stopped the weapon, resulting in just a "nasty cut", which really impressed me with how protective ribs are. Now, if the blade hits perpendicular to the ribs, well, the results are quite predictable. 
 
Anyway... when I was just a wee lad, my father, who is a metallurgist, explained that fullers are actually for strengthening a blade. So, between my personal experiences and a way over detailed explanation from dad, I gotta go with the "for strength" reasoning as well. 
 
E There is nothing like a little night time entertainment, especially when it involves stockings, garters and a lot of contact.... 
Thats right... We're talking HOCKEY

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