REAL GEAR: Axel Guttmann items on Legio VI website

[FlaviusCrispus]

Avete, comilitones!<br>
<br>
Thanks to Julian Dendy (aka M. Antonius Celer of Legio XIIII R.M.R.S. in Britannia), I recently had the opportunity to look over, handle, and photograph much of the Axel Guttmann Collection of Roman military equipment at Christie's in South Kensington. Some of the best images are now posted on a page entitled Real Gear on the Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis website, accessible via this [url=http://www.legionsix.org/Real%20Gear.htm" target="top]LINK.[/url]<br>
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These images are intended for study purposes only, and may not be reproduced without the permission of Legio VI, Leg XIIII R.M.R.S. and Christie's.<br>
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The most astonishing piece is undoubtedly the "mouse helmet," a fantastic Niedermörmter-style (Italic H) helmet in iron with brass decoration. But there is plenty else to feast your eyes on! Enjoy.<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/10/04 5:33 am<br></i>

[scythius]

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Thanks for the p/o/r/n/o/ er, lovely pictures, FC!<br>
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Scy. <p>LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS - </p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

Godo on you Dave!<br>
<br>
Woohoo!!<br>
<br>
Hibernicus <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hi guys. My keyboard is dry again (in fact, it needed a good cleaning! )<br>
You know that we, late Romans are really strange people and I've passed over that breathtaking mice Third century helmet to the uncomplete, unrestored late ridge helmet, for me the most interesting item in the collection!<br>
It shows the way the crest was fitted to the (now missing) ridge on the famous Intercisa helmet.<br>
Flavius, do you have more photos (front and back ones, for instance) or, Antonius, could you get more photos from it before it disappears forever?<br>
Please, confirm or correct what I' going to state, inferred from the photos.<br>
All three surviving components (half bowl, ridge and crest) were once covered with gilt copper-alloy plate.<br>
All rivets are missing.<br>
The plate surfaces are plain and undecorated.<br>
The bowl is too shallow for a human head and had surely a lost base ring attached to its lower part.<br>
The forward and rear ends of the ridge are broken.<br>
The crest was attached to the ridge via three slits on the later.<br>
Are there any details know on its findspot and circumstances?<br>
Pure masochism, which is the starting price for it?<br>
I'd fly to London to see it by myself if I could!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Ave, Aitor!<br>
<br>
Thought you might like that little Intercisa!<br>
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Alas, the only other photo I have of it is badly out of focus. Here is the [url=http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=&intObjectID=4265342&SN=5524" target="top]LINK[/url] to the Christie's catalog page for it. Oddly, it is being offered along with the front part of a 1st century muscle cuirass, probably to raise the perceived value of the lot. I'm not sure Christie's is aware of the importance and rarity of the Intercisa. I would imagine the opening price would be about 70% of the estimate.<br>
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Your description is right on the money, from what I can see. Julian said he originally thought it was made of brass, due to the yellowish areas visible on the surface, but closer inspection revealed the iron core and copper sheathing and gilding.<br>
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I've also added a few other images of items not in the Guttmann Collection to the page. These are items that have come through my hands or been offered to me at Freeman & Sear over the past couple of years. The shoulder armor may be medeival, but there are a lot of "Roman" elements to it (the rolled edges and the knobs, which resemble those on 3rd century "crossbow" fibulae) and I plan to publish a detailed description and a proposed reconstruction soon.<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/10/04 5:34 pm<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Ave Flavius,<br>
I hope that Julian will be able to take some more detail pics for me (In any case, I read that something has been published on the helmet, in German, as ever )<br>
Not even in my wildest dreams could I pay the lowest estimate figure! That interesting item should end in a museum, alongside with some others in the auction, it is really ugly but it gives clue information...<br>
It seems as if the surviving half-bowl were deformed and, thus, looking lower than it actually is.<br>
Another question concerns the way the guttering is attached to the crest border and how are the embossed (sunken?) lines on it. The profile of the ridge (I would add a view from above to my list of desires )<br>
BTW, are you meaning cruciform brooches (zwibelknopffibeln)or proper crossbow ones?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Hibernicus]

The Crest<br>
The Christies photo shows "lines" on the crest. If you play around with contrast, color, sharpness etc with Flavius photo you can make some of the crest lines appear, though not as crisply as in the Christies photo..<br>
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Proportionality<br>
Comparing the helmet to the cuirass.. it seems that the helmet dimension, front to back, is okay.<br>
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Crest tabs and ridge rivet holes<br>
Falvius's inside view clearly shows the securing tabs and some ridge rivet holes that correspond with the tab locations. If you enlarge the Christies photo you can easily see at least two rivet holes along the top. They seem to be spaced a bit wider than the holes around the helmet's circumference.<br>
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Depth<br>
It seems to me that the holes around the circumference are rivet holes... I'm guessing for a circumference band.. adding such a band would make the helmet deep enough.<br>
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There is also a line, barely noticable on Flavius photo that corresponds with the circumference holes. Flavius, is that maybe an artifact of the photographing?<br>
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Hibernicus <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi guys,<br>
<br>
One thing is clear, this is not an Intercisa. The bowl looks like the Iatrus helmet, but as Aitor informs me, this particular one one was mounted on a base band.<br>
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However, that would make it comparable to the Budapest helmet, which also was constructed as two half bowles on a base band, but on the other hand has a far deeper bowl.<br>
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Or, it would have a base band the size of that of the Berkasovo I (the bejewelled one). The amount of rivets looks more like that one, too.<br>
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The crest, however, looks much like the Dutch Venlo helmet (with the Chi-Rho)!<br>
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Which makes a real mockery of trying to find some sort of standardisation amongst Late Roman helmets!<br>
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Hibernicus, I agree with the holes and lines visible. Your picture also showed the crest being 'lines' with the original plated silver (?) or something, which is missing from most other helmets.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Aitor,<br>
<br>
From a picture supplied by Hibernicus, I can see barely any trace of 'eyes' or 'crosses' on the bowl. The crest on the other hans shows many details, albeit unclear because of the smaller scal of the picture. I'll see what I can do with it. However, I can't post it on RAT because of copyright issues.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Well, I had refrained of mentionig it but he surviving half bowl exhibits damage just in the place suited for one of those front eyes...<br>
The crest has only two embossed lines. If we believe Christie's, they'd be in relief, not sunken.<br>
I think that the longitudinal profile of the ridge is not very deformed and perhaps we could have a better idea of the original form of the helmet from it (We'd need the ridge's cross-section, Julian, can you help us?)<br>
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Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Thah non Guttmann shoulder section of a composite armour is fascinating too. This is also a first..<br>
It made me thing about the Arlon relief --the mail coiats with the segmentata shoulders.<br>
But this is yet a new system..<br>
Naturally, we have no datation for it... <p></p><i></i>

[Gashford]

Hello all<br>
<br>
Great resource! Thanks fellahs<br>
<br>
I was interested in the gladius tip shown below from this collection. The tip looks ribbed for strength, this isn't something I have seen a lot of, is this quite common.<br>
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www.legionsix.org/sword.jpg<br>
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Also, although it is very hard to tell whether or not the blade is simply corroded or not, but those that have seen it might shed some light on it, is the blade patterened?<br>
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All the best <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Yes, I thought the gladius tip quite interesting as well, which is why I took close-ups from a couple of angles. I hadn't seen this feature before on any other Roman sword, though it seems to be a feature of some medieval swords.<br>
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The "rib" seems distinct from the peak of the diamond cross-section of the blade-- i.e. it seems to have been raised separately, not "hollowed" out of the blade cross section. (I'm not sure of my terminology here, not being a bladesmith. Am I making any sense?)<br>
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Celer seemed to think the raised rib was both for added strength and to provide a better point for opening mail rings.<br>
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The blade did exibit overall corrosion, but was in much better shape than most surviving Roman-era iron, which is mostly stabilized rust. I do remember seeing evidence of pattern-welding, which shows up in the detail image showing the owner's name, which appears to have been "dotted" into the surface, then inlaid with silver!<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA <p></p><i></i>

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

<br>
Flavius,<br>
<br>
thanks a lot for your posting.<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Titus <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Gashford,<br>
I had the opportunity to examine this sword when it was loaned the the Mittelrheinisches Landesmuseum Mainz (with thanks to Dr. Decker). the blade is hardly corroded at all. This seems to be an unusal variation of the standard Pompeii, much narrower then most, and then the peculiar teardrop tip. I only know of one other, and I have it! I believe it was dredged from the Danube in the Balkans, and still has river sand and gravel imbedded in it. It is just as narrow as the Mainz/Guttman, and it too has the swelled teardrop tip. Yes you probably could punch through a mail shirt with that tip!<br>
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The story I heard of how the Mainz/Guttman sword was found was that it was scooped up from a building site in Mainz, put in a dumptruck and dumped in a sandlot where a detectorist found it protruding from the sandpile! As I understand it, because it was found in a deplaced sand heap, and not taken from the actual excavation, the detectorist was allowed to keep it.<br>
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There may be more evidence of this narrow type gladius in the many quite narrow chape plates found that are usually identified as belonging to a Spatha, but could just as easily fit on one of this type of narrow Gladius.<br>
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Dan <p></p><i></i>