Cornuti - or not?

[ValentinianVictrix]

Well, Ammianus records the Ballistarii as operating from horseback, and the reconstruction of the Xanten Manuballista needed a support like a Sniper rifle. The only logical thing is that they used crossbows (Arcuballistae), something Comitatus has successfully tested.

Please quote the exact section in Ammianus where he mentions Ballistarii as 'operaring from horseback' as none of the translations I have mention this.

On that note, looked it up and I think it was an inference, he mentions ballistarii and cataphractarii accompanying Julian (a very odd combination as Ballistarii would have moved very slow if armed with the cheiroballistra) and Comitatus extrapolated.

Ah, I thought that would be the case. Actually, what Ammianus states is that those two troop types were totally unsuitable to defend Julian, unlike the 8000 auxilliary troops who accompanied Silvanius over the same route just a short time before. I have argued that the passage here could have been corrupted in the past and what the sentence probably said was a unit of Catafractarii and Sagittarii, which would equate to heavily armoured riders in the company of horse archers, which would have made much more sense.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Ah, I thought that would be the case. Actually, what Ammianus states is that those two troop types were totally unsuitable to defend Julian, unlike the 8000 auxilliary troops who accompanied Silvanius over the same route just a short time before. I have argued that the passage here could have been corrupted in the past and what the sentence probably said was a unit of Catafractarii and Sagittarii, which would equate to heavily armoured riders in the company of horse archers, which would have made much more sense.

Thanks, that could be one thing, but "Ballistarii" to "Sagittarii is quite a leap for a copyist's error, don't you think?

Anyways, back on topic, I find it unlikely that the Romans would have put horns on their helmets. Idealogically it would have come across as "Barbaric" to the Romans and Roman troops.

[Michael Kerr]

I have been following this thread with interest & although I admit I don't know much about late Roman army but in regards to whether helmets had feathers or horns I remembered looking at a blogger's travel site for my daughter who is travelling to Italy & I stumbled across this page describing an annual festival in a small village regarding the “Cornuti" & how it may have originated with returning Roman soldiers who have suffered infidelity by their wives while they were off fighting & the carrying of horns symbolised infidelity & how it may have Celtic origins & cattle festivals. I shall put link below. It's probably unrelated but maybe of interest to some. I have to wonder though did Roman wives have the right to divorce if their husbands were serving in the army & never returned home in his 15-25 year stint in army & did they have a legal right to remarry? Also could the army have made a distinction with these men in their ranks as soldiers who were divorced by wives was probably more common than assumed? I know technically Roman legionaries were not allowed to be married but during republican times I don't think the army had such rules & what about auxilliaries? Sorry now I am really straying off topic but I am just curious as to the origin of the word Cornuti & the Roman army. If a man returns home to find he has been displaced while he served in the army is liable to sign up for another stint in army as that has been his life & he in turn would be a veteran trooper & maybe they grouped these men together making them a veteran unit. This is not a theory just wondering if term goes back a bit.

http://www.only-apartments.com/news/corn...lity-rome/

Now back to the serious discussion.
Regards
Michael Kerr

[markhebb]

Nathan - have you looked at Hoffmann? What does he say about the origins of the Cornuti?

[M. Demetrius]

Michael, I don't think the name Cornuti as applies to Late Roman legions is of the same meaning as the modern Italian cornuti (cuckold). Since soldiers were not allowed to be married legally, they could not be "divorced", nor could their non-wives commit adultery against their non-husbands, if you get my meaning.

I will say, however, that the word in our title makes our yahoo group think we're in the "adult section" of yahoo. Of course we are not, and only a couple of their servers think so.

I don't know if the name had to do with "horns" as in animal horns, or musical instruments. But since all legions had the musical instruments, it's unlikely that they would have made some special note of the Cornuti Seniores/Iuniores on that basis. It seems more reasonable to me it had something to do with either a metaphor or some previous tribal attribute. I don't know. For us, it's just a name.

[Nathan Ross]

have you looked at Hoffmann? What does he say about the origins of the Cornuti?

I don't think Hoffmann has been translated, and I can't read German, so no! But Alfoldi in his paper calls Hoffmann his student (actually "my pupil Dietrich Hoffmann of Basel"), so I would guess that H follows A's argument. Would anyone be able to check?

Since soldiers were not allowed to be married legally, they could not be "divorced", nor could their non-wives commit adultery against their non-husbands, if you get my meaning.

Soldiers could marry, post Severus, but I would think a unit of cuckolds was even less likely than a unit of hornblowers!

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Dietrich Hoffman? Damn I need access to him too, I need a reference regarding the Lines of the Notitia Dignitatum about the Alan Settlements in Gaul.

[markhebb]

Nicasie would also be a good one for you. When I get a moment i'll check my copy for references...

[markhebb]

while I'm at it - you'll need to check Drew-Bear's 1977 article dealing with an inscription dated securely to 356 - it contains reference to a ducenarius of the numerus Ioviorum Cornutorum seniorem......the article is:

Drew-Bear, T. (1977) ‘A fourth-century Latin soldier's epitaph at Nakolea’, HSCP 81: 257-74.

ps the pages in Hoffmann you'll need are 132-135 (sorry I don't have a copy)

[sonic]

If I remember correctly (it's a long time ago!) Hoffmann follows Alfoldi almost to the letter. Again using my dodgy memory, the reasoning used by both (and in no particular order) is that:

the auxilia used the barritus, a 'Germanic' war-cry, therefore they are Germanic
the senior auxilia used 'horns', a 'Germanic' symbol, as shield patterns therefore they are Germanic
the Cornuti are the senior auxilia, they have 'horned' shield patterns, therefore they are Germanic, therefore the troops shown on the
monument who appear to have 'horns' are the Cornuti and are Germanic.

It's very circular and the whole edifice comes crashing down when any major component is questioned.

[Nathan Ross]

Nicasie would also be a good one for you - you'll need to check Drew-Bear's 1977 article dealing with an inscription dated securely to 356

I've read Nicasie, but some time ago - as far as I recall his approach was generally cautious ;-)

I was reading that Drew-Bear article yesterday though. The inscription is AE 1977, 00806 - a ducenarius of the numero (Ioviorum?) cornutorum seniorum.

Interestingly, the man was born in Singidunum, 'natus in Dacia', served 27 years and died in 356. So unless he changed unit at some point he was enrolled into the Cornuti in c.329, but was apparently not in any way a 'Germanic barbarian'...

[Flavivs Aetivs]

If I remember correctly (it's a long time ago!) Hoffmann follows Alfoldi almost to the letter. Again using my dodgy memory, the reasoning used by both (and in no particular order) is that:

the auxilia used the barritus, a 'Germanic' war-cry, therefore they are Germanic
the senior auxilia used 'horns', a 'Germanic' symbol, as shield patterns therefore they are Germanic
the Cornuti are the senior auxilia, they have 'horned' shield patterns, therefore they are Germanic, therefore the troops shown on the
monument who appear to have 'horns' are the Cornuti and are Germanic.

It's very circular and the whole edifice comes crashing down when any major component is questioned.

Not all Auxilia Palatina were Germanic though. The Placidi Valentiniani were most probably Roman.

[Urselius]

Ammianus makes more references to troops being 'Gallic' than 'German'. Though this could be usage related to all troops - Gauls, other provincial Romans and Germans - originating from units normally operating in Gaul, he also attaches certain moral qualities to these troops that have a "national flavour." Hugh Elton did quite a convincing hatchet job on the idea of an overwhelming Germanisation of the Roman Army.

[Robert Vermaat]

Since soldiers were not allowed to be married legally, they could not be "divorced", nor could their non-wives commit adultery against their non-husbands, if you get my meaning.

Not that I think that 'cornuti' were 'cuckolds', but Late Roman soldiers were allowed to legally marry after Septimus Severus.

I don't know if the name had to do with "horns" as in animal horns, or musical instruments. But since all legions had the musical instruments, it's unlikely that they would have made some special note of the Cornuti Seniores/Iuniores on that basis. It seems more reasonable to me it had something to do with either a metaphor or some previous tribal attribute. I don't know. For us, it's just a name.

There are several odd names for regiments in the Notitia Dignitatum. The Cornuti could have been named after some log-lost tribe, or one we simply don't know about.
Alternatively, the 'special object' name is a possiblity (scutum, ballista), in which case it's just another nickname I think.

[Nathan Ross]

I was just looking through Miroslav Vujović's paper on Late Roman Helmets from the Iron Gate, and found this comment in the footnote on page 38:

On the iron Late Roman helmet bowl fragment from the Museum of Slavonia in Osijek ( Mursa) occurs representation with two antithetically posted animal heads, probably goats (Radman-Livaja 2010, 236, cat. no.6). This very symbol, displayed in Noticia Dignitatum... appears on the shields of several infantry units of Auxilia Palatina, consisted mostly of Germanic warriors (Cornuti seniores, Brachiati seniores, Petulantes seniores, Celtae seniores). [sic]

Vujović goes on to connect this with Alfoldi's idea that the same symbol appears on the Arch and the steelyard, etc.

However - what's this helmet fragment from Osijek? Does anyone have an image of the animal-head design?

I wonder if it might resemble either of these two interestingly-adorned helmets from the Portonaccio sarcophagus?