How to sleep in a contubernium

[Vitruvius]

Hi Robert, Hi Adam!
When I was in the Navy, We had two sailors on duty at night.; one on fire watch in our bay for the bunks (these 2 were while we we on shore duty) and one on guard duty. There was a slightly different arrangement whilst on sea duty. Each one was from one of our two "Units" ( which was 1/2 of our company.
I hate to sound negative, but I simply must warn against applying modern techniques to the Romans as w/o some evidence, it is only hypothetical at best exactly how things were done. All I can suggest is caution until Evidence ( probably on paper of some sort)) is found, We must tell people who ask at our encampments that Our arrangements are only experimental based on slim, if any evidence.
Salvete, Mi Fraters,
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager

[Densus]

I'm not sure how your solution would be better, other than an entire unit being awake for the whole night (and very sleepy in the morning). If you have some men on duty and some asleep, how is that differnt from my solution? Either a few men of each contubernium sleep most of the night, or the entire contubernium is on guard/asleep all of the night?

Apologies Robert, I don't think I have explained what I mean very clearly. I don't mean that the same sub-unit(s) stay on all night on their own, I mean that those on duty could rotate by unit.

As an example, if it took one full century to provide the sentries for the camp of a Milliaria Cohort at any one time. Century 1 takes the first watch, Century 2 the second, Century 3 the third and Century 4 the fourth. Centuries 5 to 10 get an unbroken nights sleep. The next night it will be Centuries 5 to 8 and so on.

Nice clear lines of responsibility (ie this happened during the second watch, Centurion X that is down to your men), no issues with finding out who is getting up next or climbing over people in a tent to wake the next pair, cohesion within the unit etc. In that example you get at least one nights unbroken sleep to one nights broken sleep and most of the time two nights unbroken sleep to one nights broken sleep, something you could keep up pretty much forever. There are a number of other ways to achieve much the same effect but that was a simple example and I hate maths.

This could all be my modern brain solving the problem in a way that makes sense to me and wouldn't have made sense to them. As someone wrote on this site a while back we are talking about people who thought it was a good idea to put a hinge on a piece of leather!

[Mark Hygate]

When it comes to thinking of Guard Duty - there is one 'real' piece of evidence we could use.....

That one of the uses of the Extraordinarii was to guard the camp whilst the army was fighting. If so, then by analogy.....

If the Extraordinarii are of the 'classic' (Polybian) size and, just considering the infantry (assuming the cavalry component is far too important to leave in camp) element, then there is sufficient for each 120 man Maniple (pair of centuries of Hvy Inf) to hold each wall segment (8 in total), with the velites/Lt Inf to hold the gates (as detailed) and the Trarii as reserve (and looking after he cavalry horses at night as also detailed).

With the Extraordinarii infantry representing 1/10th of the army in the earlier period, then that could mean Guard duty only once every 10th night (if the analogy holds). Once every 5th night if in two watches. It certainly doesn't seem unreasonable.

Depending on the size of the unit/army, then Guard Duty by centuries/cohorts makes a lot of sense from a command and control perspective.

I will note that, however unbelievable I find it, ps-Hyginus states that 1/5th of a century is always on guard. With tents being used to 'hot-bunk' (which is why I find it so implausible).

[Jdwyer]

I really don't see the organisation of guard duty changing all that much but segmented sleep is a certainty. There is no way that it didn't happen and the rotation od guards is easier done than said actually. Duty in the marine corps for me has always ben in 12 hour to 24 hour shifts and there always is a duty nco and an aood which is a duty officer for an area. I'd probably say sense there was no artificial lights and field ops often end with the setting of the sun theu probably allowed the men to go down to a preditermomed percent of manpower for camp roamers and camp posts. Meaninf you have exterier security and interior security. The roamers would be in charge of either waking rotated shifts or there would be no rotation. Its not umcommon atleast for marines to go all night on post and all day. Or just night and then go out and do normal ops during the day. Of course gett the next night off. The roamers would definotely be needed for chamce of fire or crimes with friend on friend violence lol it happens. A lot. Now I'm sure there are lots of more knowledgeable people here on Rome but in my opinion it wouldn't be much different. There would probably be a nightly log book and records of everything that happened at night and probably something similar to a guard century and an officer of the guard for sectorsof control and it would be broken down sistamatically so tthat's its simple amd easy to inforce. Probably a nightly muster to make sure everyone is certain of their duties for the night before being released from duty to break down for bed or whatever else is needed for them to do

[Jdwyer]

And sorry auto correct put sense. I meamt since. My spelling is atrocious but any again this is a modern outlook I just look back on how we as the marine corps has not changed how we have watch or duty in 200 years but situation always dictates and there are different procedures for a naval situation and an encampment but again I look at this with my military experience not research

[M. Demetrius]

We old guys don't know anything BUT interrupted sleep. :|

[Bryan]

I read somewhere, for the life of me I cant remember where, that each maniple/century had their own portion of the camp's rampart/ditch to dig. (if you know what the source is, give me a hollar) If this was a given, that units had assigned areas to dig whenever erecting a standard march camp, could these same areas have been their responsibility to guard as well? How many men would need to guard a 25 meter (or whatever it was) section of a rampart, given that it was also protected by a large ditch and pila muralia ontop? Five, Maybe six? Was it the duty of a sentry to stop an attack or just slow it down long enough for the general alarm to be given and for additional forces to gather.

If at any given time, if 1/4 of soldiers were on duty during while in camp during hours of limited visibility, and if only x amount of soldiers were needed to guard the perimeter, then it seems that there was plenty of other guard responsibilities. What else was there? Roving tent guards for the century area, guarding the praetorium tent, (though maybe it was a tasking for special units such as extraordinari), guarding the tribune's tents, praefects, questor's tent, those of the legates, etc, gate guards for the four main camps?

What was the duty of officers during guard duty? Were there tribunes on duty? A centralized HQ guard position, such as an officer of the day?

Are we deviating too much from the topic at hand? Maybe a new topic is needed? "Guard Duty in Marching Camps"

[Vitruvius]

I agree Frater Dave, I so do agree , heh,heh

[M. Demetrius]

hat each maniple/century had their own portion of the camp's rampart/ditch to dig.

Try Polybius' The Rise of the Roman Empire Book VI.27 and the following couple of pages tells the whole tale. Of course that may only have applied to HIS time, but at least it gives the idea.

[PhilusEstilius]

This post reminds me of my first few weeks in Military Basic training when we first ever went off into the wilderness and it rained solid stair rods for aweek, the only dry spots there were was the bed roll we each had in our tents OMG the pain and hardship I can still shed a tear 50 years on and feel the pain but then that is what the sharp end is like.

[Robert Vermaat]

hat each maniple/century had their own portion of the camp's rampart/ditch to dig.

Try Polybius' The Rise of the Roman Empire Book VI.27 and the following couple of pages tells the whole tale.

Sure, but tells us only about temporary camps. My guess would be that this did not reflect on guard duty in permanent camps/forts etc. For one, patrolling would be different in that situation.

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

This post reminds me of my first few weeks in Military Basic training when we first ever went off into the wilderness and it rained solid stair rods for aweek, the only dry spots there were was the bed roll we each had in our tents OMG the pain and hardship I can still shed a tear 50 years on and feel the pain but then that is what the sharp end is like.

Same here - During the Crucible it rained non-stop for two days and we were trying to sleep under little shelter-halves of two ponchos and some tent poles. We actually got rained out of our bivouack one evening!

[Vitruvius]

I agree with everyone on this thread, but.....When the thread is about sleeping in a contubernu, aren't reallydiscussing temporary camps?
Just something to think about.

Salvete, Y'All
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager

[Jdwyer]

Jesus I just saw what I posted..I apologize for slaughtering grammar. But were you on the island or cali britanicus?

And further input agreed I feel that re are all on the same point but just tweaking or playing with possible details so I agree with all of these ideas

[Vitruvius]

Relax Joseph, We all (especially me) make grammatical mistakes. Just do the best that You can and You will do just fine!
Salvete, My Friend,
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager

BTW, I agree with Your last post......This is a very fascinating topic, in part because no one is getting angry, like other threads.LOL