Sorry for the vague topic, but I tried to be specific only for the title to be capped at so many characters.
I'm doing some research for a book, and I have a few questions.
First, do we know what the Romans called Dere Street and the Stanegate? Or any tentative suggestions at least?
Secondly, is there any evidence in the mid 4th century for commanding officers, ie tribunes and prefects and so on, those that lived in the praetoriums, to reside elsewhere rather than at the fort? Paul Bidwell mentions in his excellent book "Roman Forts In Britain" that at Vindolanda, I think, repairs were made in the 4th century to the praetorium, which had apparently fallen into ruin, and adds it is unclear where the prefect will have been residing.
Do we have any evidence for this happening elsewhere or with what frequency? I do know the standard of maintenance and repairs seems to have slackened somewhat in the 4th century, and I often wonder if the criticisms some contemporaries (like Ammianus) levels at the soldiers and army - like taking on second professions, being traders first and soldiers second, etc - if things like that could maybe explain it?
My final question is for somebody with a grasp of latin - how would I render something like "Fort North of the Wall" or "of those north of the wall"?
Google gives me something like "Castrum Ad Aquiloni" but I can't help but think that can't be right.
I think that you may find that the DERE Street and the STANEGATE may well be SAXON names for these roads, what I do know is that the Dere street does not go through Corbridge and that the Stanegate runs from coast to coast and not just from Carlisle to Corbridge.
The Proto Dere street crosses the Tyne at Bywell about 4 miles east of Corbridge and this is why Hadrian put the Fort of Onnum one Roman mile east of what is presumed Portgate to cover the crossing of the Dere street over His Wall north of Bywell, I have traced the Stanegate all the way even east of Heddon on the Wall, if in fact you part the two words Stane-Gate this is Saxon for stone road.
Quote:Castrum per Vallum Borealinae? (roughly "Fort (per being a position) along the wall's north side" I think)
Thanks MMFA.
Quote:I think that you may find that the DERE Street and the STANEGATE may well be SAXON names for these roads, what I do know is that the Dere street does not go through Corbridge and that the Stanegate runs from coast to coast and not just from Carlisle to Corbridge.
The Proto Dere street crosses the Tyne at Bywell about 4 miles east of Corbridge and this is why Hadrian put the Fort of Onnum one Roman mile east of what is presumed Portgate to cover the crossing of the Dere street over His Wall north of Bywell, I have traced the Stanegate all the way even east of Heddon on the Wall, if in fact you part the two words Stane-Gate this is Saxon for stone road.
Yes, I remember discussing this with you a few years ago on a separate thread. I've always assumed the Stanegate or some variation thereof will have run west along the remaining forts simply because it makes no sense not to connect that line of forts when all the rest were.
I'm aware they're Saxon names, I'm just wondering if we know what the Romans called it, or may have called it. I'm tempted to call both the Via Borealis and the Via Aelia respectively (North Road and Hadrian's Way) if there is no evidence remaining of what it was actually called.
Quote:is there any evidence in the mid 4th century for commanding officers... to reside elsewhere rather than at the fort?
No evidence for them living elsewhere, as far as I know. I suspect that what happened, particularly during the generally-peaceable third century, is that the garrisons were reduced or downgraded and were no longer commanded by equestrian-level officers. There is evidence from inscriptions of fort structures falling into disrepair during this period, and being renovated later.
If the garrison of a fort, for example, was reduced from a full cohort or ala to a couple of centuries or an irregular unit, commanded by a centurion, perhaps given the temporary position of praepositus (increasingly found in this era), then the commander would live in the barrack accomodation and the old praetorium would either be disused or be converted to other uses. If (as seems to have happened at various times) the garrison was changed, restored or expanded then the old praetorium would be renovated and brought back into service.
Quote:how would I render something like "Fort North of the Wall" or "of those north of the wall"?
I don't know latin to any real degree, but as I understand it the Romans were more inclined to position things in relation to other things rather than by compass directions. The phrase 'on the other side of the wall' (trans vallum, which occurs in some inscriptions) is more likely, I think. Although, as Mike Bishop's blog points out, we don't really know what the Romans called 'Hadrian's Wall' anyway...
'People on the other side of the wall' might be 'trans vallum gentis' (??? pretty sure I've got that wrong) or the more dramatic 'trans vallum hostis' ('enemies' rather than people). The fort could be Trans Vallum Castris, maybe?
The grammar is probably very faulty on these, though! Hopefully a latinist could clear that up, or suggest a more correct alternative...
Quote:I'm tempted to call both the Via Borealis and the Via Aelia respectively (North Road and Hadrian's Way) if there is no evidence remaining of what it was actually called.
Most roads were named after the builder, or emperor who ordered the construction - but I don't know if we have any named roads from this far out on the empire's edge. Dere Street, as the main route into the north following the expanisions of Cerialis and Agricola, may have been the Via Flavia at a push. Stane Street predates Hadrian, and probably goes back to the Flavian era too, but if we associate it with Trajan instead it could be the Via Ulpia, maybe...
But here's no evidence for any of this, or for these roads having actual names at all. They could just have been referred to by destination - the road to Eboracum, or whatever.
I wonder if the Dere Street might have been called the Via Caledonia as it was one of the major roads to Scotland, but then there are many Roman roads all over Northumberland going to Scotland.
There is the Devils Causeway that crosses the Dere Street that comes up from the Stanegate going to Howick Haven half way up the coast with other branches going off it one to Berwick and another three lane road going north on the east of the Cheviots that runs parallel to the Dere Street.
The Devils causeway may have been named from the Devils Water a branch of the Tyne river that goes south opposite the Roman town of Corbridge, this road does not go south but there is one that follows the Devils water to link with a major one coming from Ebchester to Hexham where the Ala Petriana were stationed.
It continues over the south Tyne at Fourstones on the Stanegate and also passes by the fort of Procolitia past the west door of the shrine of Coventina the only Romano Celtic shrine in Britain that has a western door.
Quote:No evidence for them living elsewhere, as far as I know. I suspect that what happened, particularly during the generally-peaceable third century, is that the garrisons were reduced or downgraded and were no longer commanded by equestrian-level officers. There is evidence from inscriptions of fort structures falling into disrepair during this period, and being renovated later.
If the garrison of a fort, for example, was reduced from a full cohort or ala to a couple of centuries or an irregular unit, commanded by a centurion, perhaps given the temporary position of praepositus (increasingly found in this era), then the commander would live in the barrack accomodation and the old praetorium would either be disused or be converted to other uses. If (as seems to have happened at various times) the garrison was changed, restored or expanded then the old praetorium would be renovated and brought back into service.
Yes, I imagined as such. No problem, I just wondered if maybe it happened or if it was a feasible occurrence.
Quote: <snip>
Ah yes, trans vallum. I think that could work. I'm sure to be making a reference to "the wall" as you've pointed out, they liked referencing things by referencing *other* things, just need to think how I'm going to do it.
Quote:Most roads were named after the builder, or emperor who ordered the construction - but I don't know if we have any named roads from this far out on the empire's edge. Dere Street, as the main route into the north following the expanisions of Cerialis and Agricola, may have been the Via Flavia at a push. Stane Street predates Hadrian, and probably goes back to the Flavian era too, but if we associate it with Trajan instead it could be the Via Ulpia, maybe...
But here's no evidence for any of this, or for these roads having actual names at all. They could just have been referred to by destination - the road to Eboracum, or whatever.
Again, thanks a lot for this info. I'd forgotten about the tendency to name roads after their builders. I'm sure for convenience's sake they will have had names. I do like "North Road" for Dere Street simply because as Brian points out below, it headed north and I like the idea the British tradition of having "North" and "South" as actual destinations had its origins in Roman times!
I also find Via Militaria for the stanegate fitting because if you think of it it was mainly a military road built to connect the forts of what was then the limes, before the wall was built. It will have been mainly a military road so I think I'll stick to that.
Quote: <snip>
Thanks Brian, that was really informative. I'd love to take a look at your notes or any other info you may have about the Romans in the north-east of England at some point!
By the way, I do have one question that is bugging the hell out of me.
Do we have any idea what the garrison of Corbridge will have been in the 4th century? I imagine at various times the two military compounds will have been used mainly as storage/fabricae/granaries and supply depots for the wall (sort of like Arbeia to the east) but also as barracks and so on built perhaps specifically to fulfill the need of a staging point for the various campaigns/incursions into Scotland - all those emperors/generals that went up north will have needed some place to stay, after all.
The previous forts at Corbridge suggest a 1000 strong force, and Corbridge is the only site on the wall to have yielded anglo-saxon finds, suggesting it was still a sizeable settlement even after the Romans abandoned Britannia, and may have held off the barbarian waves at least for a while. This, and the fact it makes a perfect point to have a sizeable body of reserve troops behind the wall (and the fact it also seems to have made a frequent target, going by how many times it seems to have been burned) makes me think it must have had a sizeable garrison.
I'm inclined to think maybe it consisted of "legionary" vexillations taken from various legions, like the 2nd britannica, or legio praesidiensis, or perhaps even the Victores Iuniores Britanniciani? (the latter is doubtful as they were an auxilia palatinae unit) This is all speculation, and I'd love to hear any suggestions or any evidence (or indeed any other speculation) of what people think their garrison was at that time.
MARCVS.
Here is a picture of Roman roads in the area of Corbridge and the Tyne Valley that shows how roads leave Ebchester, the Dere Street going via Bywell to cross the Tyne and not at Corbridge.
There is also the Stanegate leaving Corbridge and going east to Bywell it does of course go much further east than that, there is also the frontier discovered by the late Raymond Selkirk known as his 255 line which pre-dates Hadrians Wall and this goes from coast to coast -Whitley Bay to Maryport in Cumbria- with fortlets every mile with also larger forts very similar to just what Hadrian decided at a later date.
Quote: I have traced the Stanegate all the way even east of Heddon on the Wall, if in fact you part the two words Stane-Gate this is Saxon for stone road.
Gate meaning road is of Old Norse rather than Old English origin. The Anglo-Saxons used a derivitive of the Latin strata - hence street, or[i] rad[/i] (long 'a' sound) ancestral to road.
Quote:I'm inclined to think maybe it consisted of "legionary" vexillations taken from various legions, like the 2nd britannica, or legio praesidiensis, or perhaps even the Victores Iuniores Britanniciani?
The only legion in the vicinity during the fourth century was probably the old Sixth Victrix based at York. The Twentieth seem to have vanished at some point in the late third century (Caurausius/Allectus revolt, perhaps?), and the Second were confined to the south, based first (according to Nick Fuentes) at London and then on the Channel coast.
II Britannica almost certainly date from the Constantinian reorganisation of the field army in Gaul. They may have been formed from vexillations of one or both legions from Britain, but there's not much to suggest they ever went back there. The other two you mentioned were probably similar - they were smaller-sized 'new' legions, so wouldn't have had the manpower to be sending detachments out to the frontiers.
Corbridge was, as you say, a supply depot and probably had a very limited garrison - maybe a couple of centuries of the legion from York, of from a neighbouring auxiliary unit, to guard the armouries and stores. The wall garrison seems to have become very depleted in the third century, and while there's some evidence of recovery in the early fourth, it probably never returned to being the sort of force that would need a strategic reserve at Corbridge - York, if anywhere, would function as that.
You mentioned you were thinking of this in relation to a book, by the way - could you perhaps say more about what you have in mind?
Martin.
I think we could go on for ages discussing the origins of language however the question of the topic was what did the Romans call these two roads, so therefore not to go OT I would prefer to stay with the topic and not hijack what could be an interesting subject.
Does anybody know how to multiquote on this forum? Having to copy and paste every message and reply into one is quite cumbersome.
Quote:MARCVS.
Here is a picture of Roman roads in the area of Corbridge and the Tyne Valley that shows how roads leave Ebchester, the Dere Street going via Bywell to cross the Tyne and not at Corbridge.
There is also the Stanegate leaving Corbridge and going east to Bywell it does of course go much further east than that, there is also the frontier discovered by the late Raymond Selkirk known as his 255 line which pre-dates Hadrians Wall and this goes from coast to coast -Whitley Bay to Maryport in Cumbria- with fortlets every mile with also larger forts very similar to just what Hadrian decided at a later date.
Wow, I'd really love to get my hands on those books by Selkirk. Shame they seem to be going for a fortune (for me anyway) on Amazon!
Quote:The only legion in the vicinity during the fourth century was probably the old Sixth Victrix based at York. The Twentieth seem to have vanished at some point in the late third century (Caurausius/Allectus revolt, perhaps?), and the Second were confined to the south, based first (according to Nick Fuentes) at London and then on the Channel coast.
II Britannica almost certainly date from the Constantinian reorganisation of the field army in Gaul. They may have been formed from vexillations of one or both legions from Britain, but there's not much to suggest they ever went back there. The other two you mentioned were probably similar - they were smaller-sized 'new' legions, so wouldn't have had the manpower to be sending detachments out to the frontiers.
Corbridge was, as you say, a supply depot and probably had a very limited garrison - maybe a couple of centuries of the legion from York, of from a neighbouring auxiliary unit, to guard the armouries and stores. The wall garrison seems to have become very depleted in the third century, and while there's some evidence of recovery in the early fourth, it probably never returned to being the sort of force that would need a strategic reserve at Corbridge - York, if anywhere, would function as that.
I do agree with your overall assessment. However, there are a few things I feel that, from an author's point of view, I would be able to "exploit", which I'll outline below.
The first is the general uncertainty we have (and in some cases downright total lack of evidence) regarding the bases of a lot of these "new style units" such as the Legio Comitatensis and the Auxilia Palatina. For example, the Notitia Dignitatum lists under the authority of the Dux Britanniarum a few units we know almost nothing of, such as the aforementioned Primani Iuniores (different from the Primani proper, which was another unit and an Auxilia Palatina not based in Britain) and for the Primani Iuniores we have no idea where they were based at. The Primani Secundani is also a mystery, another Legio Comitatensis which has been equated with the Secunda Britannica (based in Gaul) though again, they could have been totally different units and again, we have no idea where they were based, either.
The same can be said of the Victores Iuniores Britanniciani (an Auxilia Palatina unit) and also the Exculcatores iuniores Britanniciani, which may or may not be the same unit. The "Exculcatores" bit is interesting because it denotes a "lightly armed" function which may indicate it operated more as a reconnaissance or support unit, and I can think of few places better suited than close to the wall or the Saxon Shore for such operations to take place. To the list of units we don't know for certain what their base is, we could even add the Legio Praesidiensis, which though has been tentatively identified with Bridlington, this is by no means certain, as the Notitia Dignitatum states only "Praesidio" which means simply "Garrison" and thus it could have been based elsewhere, too.
So already, in addition to the "old" legions which we know of, there is this addition of quite a few which we know very little of. Granted, a few of those may have been created later, in the second half of the 4th century, but again, we're not too certain of that, either.
My second point is that given the turbulent history of Britain in the mid 4th century, as at 340-343 when Constans himself came with an army, and then 360 when Julian sent his Magister Equitum per Gallias Lupicinus over with four legions, and then again in 363-366 with some attacks culminating finally and dramatically in the "conspiratio barbarica" of 367-368, with Theodosius coming over with yet more Legions. Given the increased warfare, the constant coming and going of Legions, and these units popping up which we know little of, I don't think it would be outside of the bounds of reason to speculate maybe one or other of those were stationed closer to the wall than the "old" ones, simply because the wall in those turbulent 20-30 years was where all the action was happening, and it was clear the existing garrison plus the old legions were unable to handle what was going on effectively.
Given that Corbridge had two military compounds which we know still existed in the 4th century (what exactly they did though, as we've already discussed, is speculative however) and there also seems to have been a rather grand building with has been equated with the residing house and office of some rather important official, being quite palatial in nature and still in use by that time, I do believe it may have been possible Corbridge housed one of these "legions" which we know were no bigger than 500-1000 men, which Coria could have quite comfortably housed.
In sum, I believe the uncertainty, both on paper and on the ground, allow me the "artistic license" to put a legion there. It's certainly based on more evidence and more plausible than some of the stretches of historical accuracy I've seen certain authors indulge with their own titles. Or so I like to think, anyway :-)
Quote:You mentioned you were thinking of this in relation to a book, by the way - could you perhaps say more about what you have in mind?
Yes, though it is still very tentative at this stage, and I've only begun writing it. It will be a historical novel, fiction obviously, grounded in the year(s) and the events leading up to the Barbarian Conspiracy of 367-368, through the eyes of the prefect of one of the numerus on the wall.
Quote:Gate meaning road is of Old Norse rather than Old English origin. The Anglo-Saxons used a derivitive of the Latin strata - hence street, or[i] rad[/i] (long 'a' sound) ancestral to road.
Quote:Martin.
I think we could go on for ages discussing the origins of language however the question of the topic was what did the Romans call these two roads, so therefore not to go OT I would prefer to stay with the topic and not hijack what could be an interesting subject.
Thanks guys, your input has been of tremendous help. It doesn't matter much what anyone (whether Old Norse or Anglo-Saxon) called it after the Romans, because they are outside the period I wish to portray, though they are by no means uninteresting.
I think I'm going to stick with Via Militaris and "North Road" for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post. If history doesn't know what they were called, I can't be abused for coming up with my own names!
Quote:Martin.
I think we could go on for ages discussing the origins of language however the question of the topic was what did the Romans call these two roads, so therefore not to go OT I would prefer to stay with the topic and not hijack what could be an interesting subject.
It would have probably been 'Eald enta geweorc' to the Englisc anyway. But later names might have been indicative of earlier ones - Eoforwic from Eburacum for instance.
