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Legionary short gladius to long gladius
#1
Hello folks,

I am new to this forum - I have a question relating to the time or time frame that the short sword stopped being used by legionnaires. Some seem to think that it may have been as early as the reign to Marcus Aurelius possibly during the Marcomannic wars, however the column of Marcus Aurelius shows legionnaries with short swords I believe. Could it be during the reign of Severus that this occured? I would be most interested to know peoples views here.
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#2
The transition from the Gladius (Roman Short Sword) to the Spatha (Long Sword) has long been debated. It's believed it occurred beginning around 230 AD-ish.

I'm sure someone who knows more about the 3rd century can give a more detailed explanation.
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#3
Hi Archie!

I think the "classic" short swords / gladiuses like Pompeii and Mainz style were not in use at the time of Marcus Aurelius anymore, at least not extensively. The swords that replaced them were not actually "spathas" yet, more like Lauriacum-Hromowka etc. style gladiuses on "steroids" (by this I mean for example the shape of a pompeii style gladius with large dimensions, up to 65 cm long and 6cm wide). Have to check Christian Miks's opus on roman swords once again, though...

The swords in this transition period (let's say 150-200 AD) seemed quite brutish before they developed into more elegant late roman spathas as we have been used to think of them, methinks...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
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#4
So in the Republican era, the generally used gladius was between 63-69 centimeters in blade length. Later, it seemed to get shorter, the shortest being the Pompeii style. Late empire it lengthened again, with the usage of the spatha. Is this correct? If so, the Romans spent more time with long blades than short blades. I wonder what the reasoning was to shorten the blade length in the first place? What are the theories on it?
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#5
I think, from what I've learned that it was during the Republican era that the swords shortened to the Pompeii lengths of 50cm or so. I think the Celtic Gladius Hispansiensis from which the Mainz was styled was longer than the MAinz, The Pompeii was just an easy to produce design that was not really less effective than the Mainz. The main reason for the short sword was the close formations and fighting styles of the Republican and early Imperial legions. They parried or blocked with the scutum and stabbed with the short sword. It was the perfect weapon for its time but times change.

Gauls and Germanic soldiers formed much of the auxiliary forces and they used the longer swords as was customary to their regions. The auxiliaries didn't fight in the close ranks so had more room to swing the longer swords

The cavalry adopted the spathas early on for the extra length it gave them from horseback. Fighting styles by the 2nd and 3rd century AD required longer swords. That's when the spatha became a standard item and the short swords fell out of favor.

Okay you experts in here, did I get this wrong? I'm no expert but have been doing some learning. Hopefully I'm not too far off with this explanation Big Grin
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#6
Well the explanation for the introduction of the Spatha was the need for more reach in combat. Sassanids were predominately horsemen, and the Goths could slice your arm off before you stabbed them with a gladius.
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#7
Then who were the Romans fighting that necessitated a shorter sword? Romans were fighting Macedonian phalangites, Gauls, Germans, horsemen, catraphacts, etc., with longish gladii in the Republic era to the Principate. Could the change to a shorter Mainz and later Pompeii style have been a fad? Or could it have been based off of fighting other Romans?
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#8
Quote:Then who were the Romans fighting that necessitated a shorter sword? Romans were fighting Macedonian phalangites, Gauls, Germans, horsemen, catraphacts, etc., with longish gladii in the Republic era to the Principate. Could the change to a shorter Mainz and later Pompeii style have been a fad? Or could it have been based off of fighting other Romans?

I thought the Romans adopted the short swords early on in the Republic. They used the short swords against all kinds of enemies for several hundred years so it could hardly be passed off as a fad. The gladius worked very well when used with the huge scutum and close ranks.

My opinion is that the Roman gladius was never their strength. It wasn't vastly superior to Celtic or Germanic swords. Their success (in my opinion again) was their organization, discipline and stubborn determination to never give up. They refused to admit defeat even when Hannibal all but exterminated them. They just regrouped and avenged their humiliation. They would spend generations to pay some one back for a defeat.
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#9
Interesting. Even most of the Lauriacum-Hromowka types I have seen were not super long, maybe 3-5 inches about 25" or so. But they are longer.

Here are an example or two
http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Gladius_S...spatha.htm
http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Gladius_S...Spatha.htm

This page indicates how they simply were adopting enemy arms and such as decline. I am not so sure. I think Rome itself was in decline but that the military was often as capable as it had been in the past in many ways. The problem is it was not always as well funded or supported from back home. Recruiting by the end seems pretty rough. The 4th century sees much more flexible infantrymen, men who can fight in a pitched battle as well as skirmishing and other ventures as primary expectations on them. We also have the part time soldiers that must have helped round out the fact that the armies in theory were about 2 times what they had been at their peak under the earlier empire to 500k-600k.

That said they mention finds of this type of blade by c.200 AD. Not likely to be the product of this decline that soon on. My guess is this was a Roman adaptation. The thing that really keep Rome winning is its ability to find something and take it and make it their own or improve it. I suspect these could still be used much like the earlier Mainz and Pompeii types but with some more reach. In the end they go to a much longer sword but once again I do not think this is anything more than them being used in far more scenarios, en rank or skirmishing so instead of two swords they have one more versatile one. Even the later Roman spata (I know this is simply term changes over time) was not all that long compared to later medieval swords.

Who knows but they were very smart in war so I sort of think the sword itself as an upgrade.

CAC
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#10
Medieval swords got over 42 inches in the blade while the longest Roman Spathas almost never hit that length.
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#11
FA,

That was indeed my point. What we are dealing with in Roman times is all rather close in their grouping tied to length.

CAC
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