Please identify era and museum reference on Calcei

[Palmerius2002]

10 August 2013

Ave Roman Army Talk Forum;

Seeking to identify Roman era, and museum that a pair of these calcei belong to.
Want to be sure that I did the correct era for the calcei I made. Could they have been used by
Auxilla also besides Legionary? I added wider and taller
heel counters, and lacing tab re-enforcements the stitching though not period
would this be acceptable feature in the USA, Britian and Europe for Roman era events?

These were recreated from a website www.florentius.com

these are referred to as the Type I
http://www.florentius.com/calcei-main/calcei-1-web.jpg

Are they Imperial? Roman Era?
If not what era? I want to be able to docuement
what I use at an event.

Was this style Adopted from Europe or Britain or
is it strictly Roman?

Have archeological excavated examples been found?

Were they copied from a statue?

Is the top boot collar lacing tab shown in the profile photograph
too long should this be shortened?

Willing to correct them when the historic evidence is presented.

I added some reenforcement panels stitched in to strengthen them
wich may not be period because of reading the article below as I want mine
to last me a while.

I read this article the Roman Recruit by Paul Elliott, and realized that this reenforced stitching detail may be needed as I want my clacei to last longer than his calcei may be much latter than mine as a guess.

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A...manre.../boots.htm

I have also purchased and read Paul Elliotts book:
The Last Legionary: Life as a Roman Soldier in Britain AD 400
ISBN: 978 0 7524 5927 1
Published by Spellmount 2007



Thank You;

Geoffrey Ives

P.S. I was told when I joined a Roman unit that I must have
enclosed boots so I made these.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Why are you reading a book for 400AD if you're portraying a soldier in 100AD?

Florentius is reliable, as far as I know. Many guys have used it.

[Palmerius2002]

I like the Florentius.com site very much. I am not able to reach him using the email
address he provided me a while ago, have tried to contact him so as not to take up others time answering this post.

I just wanted to substantiate what era
the calcei were from so that I can respond if challenged at an event
and really know what I am
doing corresponds with the correct period.

As for the latter book, I am trying to build a library that runs the full Roman Era from start to finish. I realize that there is probably no correlation with 1st century vs 5th century and latter.

I found Paul Elliots web article on calcei wear very informative to take the chance to make my attempt at making my own calcie stronger for weather-durability purposes.
I also want to make my calcie re-sole-able to last longer than the average as making them was expensive comparatively speaking. It cost more to make them then to buy them from a retailer in the US or Europe. I am adding features in to make them last longer.

Personal Message me if you like and suggest some books for back ground reading on 1st and 2nd Century Legionary and Auxilla topics to help with the impression.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

There is correlation but it is mostly built around neo-migration theory. Peter Heather's books The Fall of the Roman Empire and Empires and Barbarians both explain it rather well, how over time the shifting of Barbarian groups eventually formed larger organizations that lead to confederations that lead to the supertribes of the 5th century that lead to the Barbarian Kingdoms. I don't have the time to explain it, it takes too long.

As for the Roman Army itself, many things lasted from the 1st to the 5th. For example the Pilum persisted as the Spiculum and then into the Frankish Kingdom as the Angon.

[Palmerius2002]

I did not clarify :oops: :mrgreen: :woot: :whistle: (you were correct to correct me about the "correlation" statement )I was referring to 1st century Roman Military footwear vs. 5th Century Roman Footwear. I desire to know the difference between the different Roman eras Republican through the Fall of the empire in the 5th Century, equipment and history. That is why I chose to buy the book Last Legionary based in the 5th Century as I could not find anything about the 1st Century or 2nd Century Roman Soldiers experience at Amazon.com. :?

Would still like to know what era the boots I made are from? Are they 1st century? :?

What my re-enactment group will say to me is:
" prove it, where is your documentation in the archeological record for the calcei boot you made?" :!: 8+) :x

That is the point of my post here. 8+)
Not barbarian anthology or pilums.
Thanks for the class on those topics just the same.
I joined the site to learn and
do sincerely appreciate the history lesson.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I'm not sure what they are, based off of Florentius itself they seem to be his own variation of the Dura Europos Pattern, Mid 3rd Century A.D.

The difference was that Late Roman Boots were usually of the Ramshaw Style (Deurne, Cujik), rather than the Zwammerdam style (Dura Europos qualifies as a Zwammerdam I think). Earlier boots (Fell, Vindolanda) were another style.

Late Roman Ramshaw:
[img width=300]http://www.medievaldesign.com/restricted/immagini/1grande_8190.jpg[/img]

[Palmerius2002]

Thank you Evan, then they are 3d century not first century then.

That is what I was looking for.

Geoffrey Ives

[Flavivs Aetivs]

For first Century I'd reccomend:

https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index...cts_id=648

This is the Vindolanda Boot, 1st Century

or if you're looking for 2nd century:

http://www.armae.com/Zenglish/greek_and_..._frame.htm

The offer the Londinium Calcei, Early 2nd century AD

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

Oh, I don't know about that; those Vindolana boots don't look *that* much different than what's on Florentius' site (I'm refering to his 'Patern 1' boot)...I'd say they could do for 1st. Century in a pinch.

Geoff, you said that the email you're trying to use isn't working? I'm curious as to which one you're trying to use, because I've talked to him approximately a week ago using the address off his site.

-Quintus Claudius Britanicus

[Paul Elliott]

As an aside, the weblink Geoffrey gave is actually: http://romanrecruit.weebly.com/boots.html

[Crispianus]

Dear Geoffrey, Almost certainly not First Century AD, They look like a loose generic interpretation of a common form of calcei from the Second Century AD(worn by everyone in other words they survive in all sizes: men, women, children, civilians, soldiers), however its hard to tell and there are a number of problems with the interpretion, your interpretation of the original interpretation has compounded the problems to the point of including construction that doesnt occur on surviving original remains... my advice would be treat it as a learning experience and go back to the drawing board, the first thing you need to make a decent pair of calcei is a good set of suitable wooden lasts with flat soles..

Heres some links that might help:
Vindoland Boots late !st Century AD: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...landa.html
Various Roman shoe reconstructions: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...tions.html
Best Regards

[Palmerius2002]

(Quintus Britanicus, Ryan

)I havent tried to contact him through his site just through an email address he had emailed me back from. So, I will try again. They were fun to make, and a learning experience, from some of the feed back I have gotten I guess I got it wrong so will try again. Thanks for the compliments just the same.

Geoffrey

[Palmerius2002]

Thanks for your reply Crispianus;

Have to be more careful when I make the next pair of foot gear.
Thank you for the resources. I just clicked on your link to your other article
you posted on Roman Army Talk and enjoyed reading it. Very useful reference
material I shall study it. Thanks for careing enough to reply.

Geoffrey

[Palmerius2002]

Crispianus;

You are a talented coordwainer (footwear maker).

Fantastic Calcei on your links and the image you posted
above. Very intricate details on some of your open footwear
webbing.

I found a link another Roman Army Talk member had
made on his construction of 1st century German footwear
from Maintze calcei.

Do you have a book you like on the creation of wooden
lasted footwear? As well as making the lasts also?

What project would you recommend for a beginner like me?

Geoffrey Ives

[Quintus Claudius Scaevola]

Crispianus;

Do you have a book you like on the creation of wooden
lasted footwear? As well as making the lasts also?

Geoffrey Ives

I found this one when I was doing some searches during construction: http://www.legiotricesima.org/campusMart...alcei.html

He gives the process for constructing the shoe lasts, though I'm still a bit puzzled how he shaves the upper portion down enough to make a mould of his foot. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this pattern, as it seems overly complicated. The wool lining really made me do a :???: and I was able to construct mine without using a shoe last or stitching the sole. Now I DID have a shoe anvil, but that was mostly for the hobnailery. Perhaps mine won't hold up as well, but I guess we'll see...that reminds me, I have to put the pics up on here somewhere - I posted them on the Facebook page, but haven't done the full picture set....

Anyhow, don't get discouraged - You always have to make a bit of allowance, even in re-enacting; Not all of us can make leather tents, and I'm sure MOST of us didn't mine and smelt their own ore for armour and sword projects. :wink: You've got some servicable cold-weather boots, so just wear them until you make something better. In fact, having something that's not *quite* accurate can open lines of conversation with the general public about why it's different and what they would have done differently...

Edit: Oh, THAT'S why the page looked familiar!! He's got a link on there for his caligae page, which is the page I was using when constructing my first pair of Roman footwear (They turned out like garbage, but that's my fault with using a pattern that didn't fit properly. His method woked, though it's a pain in the glutius maximus doing a tunnel-stitch on those soles. Still, didn't break my curved awl in the attempt, so that's something anyhow...)

-Quintus Claudius Britanicus