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Scabbards, covered in leather or NOT?
#16
Hi Matt,

Yep, there is an extensive report (in Dutch) and yes, a good number of leather shoes (14 seperate ones, most classed as military footwear) and part of a shield cover were also found in the same riverbed as the spatha and the spear. You raise a good point, which is why I checked that data before going out on that limb :-). The beltfittings were indeed also present, but not in direct association with the spatha. Being a riverbed, it is presumed the finds were lost overboard or rejected as garbage near the quayside of the Roman castellum.

Oeps, forgot: A soft wood like basswood soaks up linseed oil like a sponge (hahahaha, just tried), so I presume a scabbard well oiled would also be capable of withstanding moist conditions. Now, when using cherry or chestnut or walnut, a well oiled scabbard is even more resitant to damp, as these are hard, dense woods. Still, I can see the use of leather as an extra "weathershield", but am trying to figure out how many scabbards indeed had a leather cover. This could both be a matter of taste and/or of finance. A finely made scabbard with nice, glossy well chosen wood could be equally or even higher prized as one of pinewood with a leather covering.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#17
If a piece of wood from a Roman context were identified as having come from a South American only species it would not have to have come from trade but could have traveled across the ocean on it's own as driftwood. Both unlikely to be identified as such and unlikely to happen but not impossible.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#18
Marcellus... I am not sure where you are looking for the exotic wood, but there is a company near me called Rare Earth Hardwoods and they have almost ever species you can think of. Here is their website: www.rare-earth-hardwoods.com

Hope that helps.

Patrick
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#19
The sword for durostorum Silistra, dating to the early 4th century with part of the scabbard and handle still in place has reports attached to it indicating that it was not covered in leather originally. Regarding skin products being present, I dont think any were.

Leather can leave impressions on materials even if the actual leather no longer exists, so skin materials remaining certainly does not mean it has leather..
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#20
Sorry Robert if this has gone off topic, I never intended it to. I was simply saying that maybe?? the Romans traded with goods like timber spices etc etc. from the South America....and NO I don't have any evidence Matt Colletivs (please don't hang me for goodness sake!! ) just a theory and I still think a possibility. Maybe one day I'll research it for myself and see if there is any evidence of such trading.
Back to the topic of scabbards finished without leather.....my own personal taste is very much in favour of beautiful timber scabbards with no leather. As mentioned I have some holly on order for a grip and am looking at some different and unique types of hardwoods for some pommels and guards.
Thanks for the website link Patrick....I am grateful.
Phil McKay
Illustrator
www.philmckay.com
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#21
The Woerden sword did not have any guttering, so I presume the presence or absence of guttering is not essential for deciding if a scabbard had a leather cover. On hardwoods, I would suggest sticking to European species (or their close relatives) for authenticity, though. Matt did issue a caution in another thread (well, I think it was Matt) on using oak for scabbards, as the tannic acids seem to leach out onto the blade, even when using an internal liner.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#22
Although I agree some scabbards would have been wooden, I actually like leather better. Dunno why, maybe the decorative applications.
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#23
Yup, the tannic acid leeched through a layer of sheepskin and etched the blade.

I'm currently writing up the evolution of the scabbard from the 4th to the 7th century but am very interested in examples of 2nd and 3rd century spatha scabbards so would appreciate it if people could list examples and relevant publications (other than those from bog deposits).

There are a number of factors to consider when deciding whether or not to use a cover.
Wood species.
Pine is very common in Scandinavian scabbards. Tough but tends to splinter badly when it breaks. You do find a few ash scabbards further south but the majority tend to be softer woods like poplar or willow which flex rather than splinter and lend themselves to carving better than the harder woods.
Form.
Most of the scabbards that I've studied and reproduced have very thin wooden components, 3mm or thinner, presumably in order to minimise weight and to create a slender profile. Obviously this means that an extra layer is required to improve rigidity and structural integrity. This takes the form of skin product, textile, bast or a combination thereof.
Decoration.
A choice between applied plates, surface carving or leather tooling would dictate overall scabbard construction.

Does Miks' contain much information on scabbards? I'm particularly interested in wood types and thickness of wooden lathes.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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#24
Yes, all blades that have a scabbard with it are included. Sometimes there is reference to wood being present when corroded to the blade. However, Miks does not go deeply into the scabbards as were found in the bogs, but perhaps I missed that somewhere in all that technical German prose. He focuses very much on blades and blade types and the finds like sliders, shapes, grips and other handleparts. I could plow through the book and see if I can get some measurements off the drawings, but presently am a bit busy.

This would be about what a second century sword with linden scabbard would look like. This is not the Woerden, as that will need iron fittings and a linden, not boxwood handle. Sword is a short Lauriacum/Hromówka spatha. Lathe are 4 mm thick (wall thickness). The inside of the cast chape is 10 mm.


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Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#25
What is generally used to fit a slider for the baldric onto the (leather) scabbard? Rivets?
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#26
No, not generaly. The Woerden one has projections on the underside which passed through the scabbard body (top lath) and were bent, but many others just have small spikes which dig into the wood and prevent the slider from sliding after it has been securly bound on. I do not really agree with the reconstruction of the Woerden slider, as I think the projections faced the same way and were actually slotted into the scabbard, as apposed to having been bent by hammering it in as one would a hobnail.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#27
Ah, so sort of how a brass fitting goes into the Intercisa-III to fit a crest? It slides in and locks into place on its own?
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#28
As well as metal slides having integral lugs to secure them, some are fastened with pins (not rivets, how do you think that you'd be able to peen the rivets inside the scabbard) which are bent over inside the scabbard (I do this buy having an iron bar inside the scabbard when I'm driving the pin through which bends it, just like the archaeological examples) and some are lashed down like the one shown in Robert's picture (some organic slides are pierced to allow the binding material to pass through them.
Whether lashed down onto wood, leather or textile, I'd imagine that some sort of adhesive was also used.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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#29
Ave to all,
Robert, my Friend, after examining the evidence that the fine folks have sent me (Thank You all Fellow RAT members), I almost have to think that not all scabbards were leather covered. There certainly appears to be no leather on the Stanwick Sword scabbard. Imagine that beauty done out of Holly as opposed to the ash it is made of. Just the thought makes me drool like a fool! BTW Robert, who would You suggest I contact to make the metal parts for the Stanwick Scaabbard? And yes, I am thinking of one made from Holly as a Dress Scabbard.
Got to Scoot,
For now, Salvete, Y'all,
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#30
I have no idea, really. They need to be cast, so you could consider sculpting them out of wax yourself and seeing if you can find a vacuum caster localy. They are stated as being of copper alloy, there is a good description of the cscabbard and its fitting on the British Museum site http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/co...4&partId=1
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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