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Photos of how to attach pugio
#1
Does anyone have a couple of good photos of how to attach the pugio to the cinglium? I know most thought now says the rings should be tight to the frogs. I don't have any pix of this and would like ot replace what is on Romans in Britain... Crispvs had pointed this out and it was something I had wanted to get done anyway. The dagger page is here: http://www.romanobritain.org/8-military/...dagger.htm
Thanks for any help...

Best, Marsh
P.S. If there's anything else you see on the site that needs work, please let me know. ;-)
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#2
I just put the loops over the frog discs. Had to position them so that could happen. Didn't hold securely, so I added a leather string tie. No problem now. Don't have a photo, because that belt is on loan right now.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#3
I know I've SEEN photos, just don't remember where. Confusedhock:
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#4
This picture Cesar put up a year or two ago might be suitable.

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...=90#224556

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#5
I don't think I can agree with Cesar on that style for what would he do if the frogs were like this one,


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Brian Stobbs
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#6
I just take a length of leather thong/tie, and loop it around the frog disks; once or twice holds it pretty securely.
If you're lucky the leather will "jam" and it'll be hard to un-wind!

The "rear" of the scabbard I have the leather tied to both upper and lower rings, the "front" I have it looped around the top - But that's more on personal preference, as I like having a slight forward angle on my pugio. *shrug* But having the ties means I
can easily adjust the angle, how 'high' it hangs from the balteus, etc.

I personally don't have a problem with a leather strap with a slit cut into it and have that 'buttoned' over the frog discs. Whatever works for you, as I haven't seen anything definitive in sculpture that says otherwise. I have never seen a baldric/shoulder strap
for the pugio, however, but have seen some reenactors do that.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#7
this is how i did it, just the belt have to be a little shorter.
[attachment=7736]P9054653.JPG[/attachment]


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AgrimensorLVCIVS FLAVIVS SINISTER
aka Jos Cremers
member of CORBVLO
ESTE NIX PAX CRISTE NIX
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#8
this is how i did it, just the belt have to be a little shorter.
[attachment=7737]P9054653_2013-08-04.JPG[/attachment]


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AgrimensorLVCIVS FLAVIVS SINISTER
aka Jos Cremers
member of CORBVLO
ESTE NIX PAX CRISTE NIX
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#9
Brian,

I agree that the frog buttons would not pass through the suspension rings, As i have said many times before, the size of most surviving frog buttons, allied with the small size (normally smaller than most reconstructions) of actual suspension rings, would make it impossible in most cases. I only linked to that picture because the pugio is in the correct position and I did not think the method of attachment used was so obvious from the photo alone. My own feeling is that they should be tied together tightly with thonging.

As to the use of the lower suspension rings, all the evidence, both sculptural and archaeological, shows the lower rings to have been left unused. They were certainly used on the Iberian forebears of the Roman items, but were redundant by the time any of us depict. So it is true that there are four suspension rings on your sheaths, but that is definitely not the same as meaning that there are four rings which are to be used.
You may think this position idiotic, particularly if you feel that the lower rings are useful, but if so we are talking about Roman idiocy derived from the Roman mindset, which was not in the least bit like the modern mindsets we are all possessed of. Therefore, if we are to depict people with a mindset we do not fully understand, we must copy the evidence for what that alien mindset caused them to do and see what we can learn from it.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#10
In a related sense, there was a discussion some years ago about a pommel terminal/end of a Gladius that appeared to look like it had a ring or a few rings attached to it...There was some heated discussion about what purpose it served, and one thought was maybe it was a means to attach a 'travel tie' or something like a sabre-knot / sword-knot to loop around the wrist to prevent the chance of dropping or otherwise losing one's gladius. It was an interesting theory, but a theory.

Not long after that post, I had been thinking, what if this pommel ring is itself the decoration, and provided no other function?

I tend to be reminded of the small rings on the halberds of the Swiss Papal Guard, and rings on khakkhara / 'sounding poles' in Buddhist contexts. Maybe one of those "ward off evil spirits" sort of concepts?

I wonder then if what we're seeing with these un-used rings on scabbards is if the rings themselves ARE the decorations, hold-overs from when all 4 rings were once used, but (the lower set) had since become decoration / jingly-jangly-things, as the pugio appears to be sufficiently supported by only the top rings.

For years I've used the old, too-thick rings from my Deepeeka pugio scabbard slung by a leather thong from the lower rings as extra jingly-jangly-things decoration. Although I [didn't] have solid supportive evidence, it was a theoretical idea and sort of my own flair. Since I'm in the middle of replacing the scabbard with a home-made metal-framed, leather covered wood core replacement, I'll omit this string of loose rings.

It continues to point me to a conclusion that maybe the 1st Century Romans had some really unique decoration / bling things that we only see in the 1st century - rings, dangly belt strips, leather strips / fringe on things like shield covers and commachio style bags. Doesn't seem to make sense to us now, as we keep trying to make "practical" or "functional" sense from these things, so maybe try to look at it from a different angle.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#11
I have put this point forward before concerning the four rings of a pugio which some tend to disagree with, it comes from Seutonius ( Galba ) where he mentions how Galba set off from Spain to Rome with his dagger hanging from his chest .
It can only be where there was a baldric strap on the top two rings with maybe two thongs at the bottom rings that tied around the chest, indeed taking the part of a Senator in a re-enactment group I have worn one under my Toga and it worked well.


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Brian Stobbs
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