Roman infantry tunic colours

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

David, most sailors, up until modern times, could not swim. If you fell in, most likely you were going down.

[AMELIANVS]

I've just encountered accidentally on this picture whom I never saw before.Unfortunately web where I found it( http://www.studyblue.com/notes/note/n/it...ck/2491708 ) is somehow top secret about any information showing and I dont want to sign up their page just to know where this is from.
In style it is similar to tribun Terentius fresco from Dura Europos,but seems to me more closer to 4th century in this case.Does anybody know more about this fresco?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

There was a big debate already about that Marsh, and in fact from what we know most sailors could swim. They were only going down if their metal armor drug them to the bottom, which it usually did.

[Vindex]

This is a great topic - I'm learning a lot so thank you everyone. Although I have read Graham's books several times, it is always great to get other people's views, particularly on dyes etc as I am such a biff with that sort of thing!

[Manius Acilius Italicus]

Since we seem to know so little of the existence of a variety of colors of tunics, is there any evidence of black capes/cloaks used by the military at any time during the Roman period, possibly lined with different colors?
I have found a few sites that state with authority that various colors of different garments were worn by the military at various times, but I cannot find where they are getting this knowledge. I am no expert on this subject, but without some authentication, I can only accept this as a premise without known facts.
I am very interested in this, as I am still designing my kit and have some ideas as to colors I wish to use.
Thanks fellow legionnaires for all of your input and knowledge.

[Caballo]

There was a report of one general in N. Africa who wore a black cloak that was thought to bring him bad luck...but can I remember the reference....????

[M. Demetrius]

If memory serves, that happened with Pompeius Magnus, and he took it off when he was told the troops considered it a bad omen. Then he lost at Pharsalus.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Robert

I think we actually have more evidence for clothing colour than many other aspects of the Roman army and its equipment which are often accepted without question. The problem is the study of textiles relating to the Roman military have never really received any academic attention until well after re-enactment groups got off the ground. I would recommend The Excavations at Dura-Europos published in 2004 by Simon James and Wearing the Cloak : Dressing the Soldier in Roman Times edited by Marie-Louise Nosch (2012) ISBN 978 1 842174 37 1.

Amongst the re-enactment community itself the debate of clothing colour became clouded by the disputes between societies. Some groups simply did not want to look like the first group 'The Ermine Street Guard' who wore red. Back then as there was no real research into the subject that was possible.

The only source for a uniform of black tunics and cloaks that I am aware of is the film 'Gladiator'. That was because the film makers wanted the triumphal entry into Rome scene to look like 'The Triumph of the Will' with SS stormtroopers.

Roman cloaks were often much bigger than some re-enactors use. Therefore to wear them you have to fold the cloak in two. This makes a lining superfluous. You could also wear an under-cloak and an over-cloak if required. There is however a late Roman cloak from Egypt in an orange wool material which has a reverse of 1.2 twill with pile.

Graham.

P.S Just read the above posts. The black cloak was supposedly worn by Crassus on the eve of Carrhae. He later changed it to the usual purple one but the damage was done! I guess that story was written with a huge dollop of hindsight.

[Caratacus]

Nathan Ross wrote:

Just to confirm, were all these three pieces found with the Dead Sea scrolls?

Yes, they were. Or, at least, they were found in caves in the region. Whether they were also used to wrap the scrolls in is a moot point and I don't have the answer to that one. The scrolls were generally stored in large earthenware jars, wrapped in cloth and sealed at the top with clay plugs. Given their age, it's amazing, I think, that the colours have remained so bright. Of course, they were stored in darkness in a very dry environment - but still rather neat, I'd say!

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[Palmerius2002]

2 August 2013

Graham Sumner;

I have just ordered the book today from my local library.
I have bought some white (bleached) linen for the purpose
of making 2 tunica. Am also considering buying a off white
greyish or yellow cast linnen fabric for making another tunica.
One will remain white the other I will
dye madder red (will try and add in natural colors to make it a
burgundy red color when I can afford).
I do plan to buy a copy of your Book Roman Military Dress
and would very much like you to autograph it for me when
the time comes. Between jobs and recovering from surgery
still. I have the capability of getting a check ordered through
my bank in Sterling pounds email me with the total cost and
shipping. I will make it a priority when I return to work to get it.
I consider myself privileged to know you, if only through email;

Geoffrey Ives

[Manius Acilius Italicus]

Thank you Graham for you usual intelligent and insightful answer. My meager collegiate training was in early American pottery, so ancient clothing and colors are way out of my league.
As to the cloak colors, I think after hearing the different inputs, that I will go with the black cloak and maybe a maroon lining if I make it light enough. I know it may or may not be out of line historically, but I have an ulterior motive.
This is off subject and for in depth another time, but with regards to the film Gladiator, my B.A. is in motion picture and television production and the scene you mentioned made a great impact on me. All have to remember that films are produced for their artistic value (to make money) and most have little regards to exact historical accuracy. I have worked on period sets where they used the props that were available (money) and actors who often have no resemblance to the original characters (box office draw).
Again thanks and I hope to learn more about textiles and colors from you experts.

[Luca]

While reading (or studing) ancient texts, I have learned a lesson from a professor here in Italy that told me that normally when a detail is written about a garment, a colour, a way to combat or whatever, this has to be intended as a non-ordinary stuff, an exception or, generally speking, something that is so particular, so special that need to be mentioned.
Of course it will be the work of the modern reader to distinguish, according to the style of writing or the context, what is ordinary and what is "special".
This could mean that a single mention of a black cloak could be at least at the beginning read as "a strange thing that needs to be mentioned".

[ValentinianVictrix]

These links might be of some interest to the readers of this thread-

http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/14944

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O11959...c-unknown/

[M. Demetrius]

Graham: The black cloak was supposedly worn by Crassus on the eve of Carrhae.

Thanks for the correction. First instance of a prophetic cloak, I reckon.

[Manius Acilius Italicus]

That makes a lot of sense Luca. Unless you were producing a training manual or set of standards, why would you take the time to write about mundane, everybody knows that type of references.
As far as the actual availability of artifacts or images, if they were somewhat rare, perhaps they were destroyed or recycled over time or we just haven't found them yet.
Not to beat color thing to death, would anyone venture to suggest some modern fabrics that would suffice to use in a tunic and cloak that are not too far off accuracy?