Why I\'m Embarrassed to be a Queenslander.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

(Dan, you are a very naughty man!) :wink:

I note a couple of school teachers in our midst. Excellent - then I can "out" myself. I was (until 2009) a secondary teacher with Education Queensland. I started in 1984 teaching Art and German in Maryborough and ended up in a school in the south west of Brisbane failing to teach English and SOSE. For the uninitiated, SOSE is Study of Society and the Environment. The initiated will realise this must mean I was a junior school teacher by then (SOSE being a junior school subject area) and indeed I was. Years 9 and 10 and not in the least unhappy not to have senior classes and all the moderation involved. On the other hand, I did have NAPLAN, but that's another story. Don't get me started.

The closer I drew to my teaching twilight, the more disillusioned I became with teaching. Not the doing of it, but what it was becoming at the hands of politicians (and not just the partisan ones in Canberra or Brisbane) and the press and in the popular understanding. As an educator, I wasn't "leading" anyone "out". I was leading kids "in" - into uni, into vocational education, into employment. Forget a liberal education. What antiquated, elitist twaddle! (While you're at it, forget universities as places of light, liberty and learning). If you haven't trained your kids up for the next stage of their march into the workforce, you've (the teacher) failed!

But, here's the thing. What workforce - what jobs? That part of the world that offers gainful employment is changing at a dizzying pace. I defy anyone to meaningfully chart backwards (which is, logically, what has to be done) from projected job vacancies in the years "x to z" to required learnings now (assuming you're happy to accept "education" is the same as "training" - I'm not).

As an old language teacher, I'm only too happy to tell anyone who'll listen (not many) of the benefits to human beings of learning a language other than your mother tongue. And any experienced educator would agree without issue. It doesn't really matter whether it's Ancient Greek or Mandarin. And it has nothing to do with employability - no matter what the public has got into its head, kids don't walk out of Year 12 classrooms and straight into jobs centred around an ability to read and write in a foreign language just because they got a VHA in Indonesian or Mandarin or some other "really-useful" modern language. It just doesn't work that way. And not always does studying a foreign language at university level open that magic door.

Intuitively, every educator since the year dot has grasped the purpose of education. To create brighter human beings. To enact a process whereby those of each new generation make better decisions about themselves, their fellow-travellers and their world than did those of the preceding generation. To have open-mindedness, gentility, decent dealing and co-operation energise human society - not dogma, conflict, exploitation and insularity.

I don't believe that making Latin and Ancient Greek available to secondary school students will set back the true cause of education any more than promoting the study of "useful modern languages" (or favouring Maths/Science) will advance it. I do, however, believe the ladies and gentlemen of the establishment press - particularly those who influence Queenslanders - should get their brains in gear before pumping out cringeworthy nonsense.

Damn - that felt good to vent!

Cheers

Howard / SPC

[Dan Howard]

A good education should give solid foundations to learning. The basics such as literacy and numeracy as well as skills in critical thinking, logical reasoning, and the scientific method. Languages form a part of this process. So does music, art, and sport. Schools should teach you HOW to learn, not WHAT to learn. The WHAT changes too quickly to ever be taught in school. It can only be effectively taught at the vocation level in the form of apprenticeships and traineeships.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Schools should teach you HOW to learn, not WHAT to learn. The WHAT changes too quickly to ever be taught in school. It can only be effectively taught at the vocation level in the form of apprenticeships and traineeships.

Amen to that! And that's the way it used to be until the big-money lobby convinced politicians that apprenticing and training was the job of teachers, not employers - dust hands, problem solved, back to profit-making.

One useful thing I did learn in studying Cicero (Cicero in Verrem and Pro Caelio) was that the type of career politician we have today is not new. Fact is, the age of the self-serving do-little politician is well and truly over. The time for a completely different species of law-maker is well and truly upon us.

Nothing to do with Latin, but I thought I'd share one of my favourite poems(Shelley's England in 1819). If you read, in your mind, the word "king" as meaning "career politician type", it's possible to see much of the poem as applicable to Australia today (well, maybe not lines 7 to 9 which refer to the "Peterloo Massacre"):

ENGLAND IN 1819

An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying king,--
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn, mud from a muddy spring,--
Rulers who neither see, nor feel, nor know,
But leech-like to their fainting country cling,
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow,--
A people starved and stabbed in the untilled field,--
An army which liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield,--
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless, a book sealed,--
A Senate—Time's worst statute unrepealed,--
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst to illumine our tempestuous day.

Ah, Education; how the exploiting class must hate it!

Howard / SPC

[antiochus]

Howard wrote:
The closer I drew to my teaching twilight, the more disillusioned I became with teaching. Not the doing of it, but what it was becoming at the hands of politicians (and not just the partisan ones in Canberra or Brisbane) and the press and in the popular understanding.

According to the Australian Institute of Teaching and School Leadership “the proportion of students entering teaching with poor Year 12 results rose to 13 per cent from less than 10 per cent.”

It seems that students in the top echelons are avoiding teaching as a career. I don’t blame them. Left wing policies and do gooder lawyers are also to blame. To attract better teachers, or the cream of the student echelon, teacher’s wages need to be increased dramatically. I’ve crossed paths with many a person who had the desire to want to teach but didn’t because they could make more money in the commercial sector.

Howard wrote:
But, here's the thing. What workforce - what jobs? That part of the world that offers gainful employment is changing at a dizzying pace.

New technologies do make some jobs redundant, but it also creates new jobs. Children born today will be working in jobs that haven’t yet been invented. You ask what workforce? I would answer and say look at the unions. The building union, which also includes the electrical trades union is threatening strike action against a new national building code that will “ensure that lazy, unproductive agreements can no longer be entered into by contractors undertaking taxpayer-funded work,” and “it will help prevent the -delays and cost blowouts that have plagued major projects in Victoria for years.”

This is another example of a corrupt union supported by Labour that has the same modus operandi that would be termed in America as the mafia. A by product of working in the film industry is it has created a non insular form of employment. By non insular I mean that the films, documentaries, commercials and training films I have worked on have exposed me to many facets of people’s lives, occupations, successes and failures. If you work in a office or your employment requires you to turn up at the same place everyday, and work with the same people, then I term that a insular environment. You are working in a bubble, and only being exposed to the real world around you via the media. The film industry has exposed me to many bubbles. Besides working free lance for various current affairs shows, I have government security clearance and I have worked on a lot of government projects ranging from classified military training films, indigenous issues, environment issue, urban planning, boat people issues (economic scammers) and even investigating UFO sightings. When all is said and done, I have witnessed a lot of the destruction caused by militant unions.

On a personal note, a friend of mine during what the Labour voters are now describing as the so called golden days of the Labour government of Rudd and Gillard, closed his construction business down, which had at times 30 million dollar contracts because of union bullying, intimidation, especially to his family and other threats. The union demanded he use union sanctioned employment agencies, which at first he refused to do because he knew they were connected to the Chinese Triad. What the union did was bring in cheap Chinese workers on 457 visas, given out by the Labour government by the bag load (at a price also). As long as the union official’s pockets were being lined, it was stuff the Australian worker mentality. My friend gave into the union demands, in fact everyone of them as he had no leg to stand on. In the end he just made a weekly wage and could not support maintaining his business and the construction equipment. Everything was sold off just to pay the bills. But in the eyes of the Labour voters my friend would be an exploiter of the so called worker, and celebrate by singing the union song “solidarity forever.” Then we have the Collin’s Class submarine fiasco. Rather than buy the submarines from another country, the government elects to have them made in South Australia so as to increase employment. So what do the unions do, when the foundations of the subs are laid, they start strike action for increased wages etc. etc. In the end, added to the design problems, the project is as financial blowout. So now the Liberal government, learning from the past, has elected to buy the next generation of subs from overseas and will be accused by Labour of not producing jobs for Australians by having them built here.

Unions have already destroyed the car manufacturing industry, one airline (Ansett) and now another (Qantas). I have no time for unions, as they are killing this country and the legacy of their destructive and greedy mentality is now taking affect. You sow what you reap and Australia is now paying the price. And you cannot blame it all on the union officials; they introduced policies which are supported by their greedy members. Besides major companies being bought down by unions, there are other untold stories of smaller business being closed by unions. One example is a small clothing manufacture that employed handicapped people. The business made a small profit each year but the owner could not pay his handicapped staff the required union rate. None of the handicapped people belonged to the union and had no desire to join the union. However, the owner at the end of each financial year gave his handicapped staff a percentage of the profits, but this still didn’t appease the union. They closed this man’s business by blocking his ability to buy the material (cloth) required to run his business. The handicapped people are now on the disability pension paid by taxpayers and the disability pension is less than what they were making when they were working in the clothing business (after the yearly bonus). Yep, I can see the union celebrating their victory against this evil exploitive business owner, slapping themselves on the back as they sing “solidarity forever.”

So instead of the Labour voters of this country blaming overseas trends or greedy companies taking their business overseas, they should start investigating their beloved unions. It is there you will find the answers.

Howard wrote:
Ah, Education; how the exploiting class must hate it!

This is a prevalent problem in Thailand. You cannot rise up through the ranks by merit alone. If you were born into the rural class, then your career progress will be blocked by those of the middle to upper class.

Ok, I also have vented my frustration.

[Dan Howard]

Union-bashing is only done by the ignorant or the self serving. Today's standard of living and safe workplaces only exist because of the unions. Yes some unions no longer look after their members and need sorting out. It is pretty foolish to think that an organisation getting taken over by organised crime is limited to unions. That is a law enforcement issue, not a union issue. Big business is just as bad and has a lot more power and influence than unions do these days. It seems that small business is caught in the middle and is being crushed by both sides. I'm not sure what the answer is but getting rid of the unions will not help anyone except multinational shareholders. One can understand the frustration of low paid workers getting laid off at the same time that the CEO gets a multi-million dollar pay rise.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

It's good to get it out Steve :wink: ,

So, I'll see your vent and raise you one.

I probably wouldn't lay the blame for the nation's ills at the feet of unions alone, although I'm hearing you when you criticize the reported tactics of some unions.

Australians involved in work, whether as employers, employees or the protective bodies (i.e., associations, unions) of both these groups seem to fall first into two basic groups: the "we-minded" and the "me-minded". I'd assert that the "we-minded" - those who conceive of a good greater than their own well-being - are unlikely (except when desperate and misguided) to use coercion to overwhelm an opponent whose actions aren't unreasonable or criminal. I'd assert, correspondingly, that the "me-minded" are very likely to use any and all means to achieve their ends. I think we can agree we find "me-" and "we-minded" persons in all four groups of the working world.

But sadly, in this day and age, it seems the "me-minded" are the majority.

This is a terrible situation, as the logical outcome of a system based on adversaries seeking to mortally wound each other for advantage is that loser groups (of course) vanish and winner groups split into adversarial components slashing away at each other in repeated cycles until the system, such as it is, eventually collapses. Hence the saying that there won't be true peace on earth until one of the last two humans kills the other.

The system of government we have in Australia is essentially the same in every country with pretensions to democracy. The people of the nation elect representatives entrusted to carry the opinions and desires of the populace into a process of discussion and decision from which come wise laws. It is these laws which are meant to form the basis of "government" - that is "government" in the sense of regulating, of restraining the excesses of those who might seek advantage for themselves to the peril of their fellow citizens.

It is a simplistic, childish model and it doesn't work for one simple reason. Some humans are self-aggrandising b******s who find themselves blessed with sufficient imagination, courage and indifference to the impacts of their actions on others to carry their plans through. Other humans are nice enough but sit back and do nothing to advance their cause - basically because they aren't blessed with imagination and courage together. Christians can also add they have been assured that the meek will (somehow) inherit the earth. Pit a not-very-bright and uncourageous sheep against a tack-sharp, well-motivated wolf and what's the outcome?

And so we get back to education. Those who learn they have a past may come to believe they have a future (I don't know who said that but I love it). More down-to-earth, knowledge really is empowering. If the "we-minded" of Australia (and b****r the world, say I, it can look after itself) can take back a decent model of education, the worm may turn.

Ooooh. That fair sent a tremor through me trellis.

Howard / SPC

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

One can understand the frustration of low paid workers getting laid off at the same time that the CEO gets a multi-million dollar pay rise.

I once asked a person debating me what was it made a CEO worth so very much more in dollar terms than a cleaner and got the usual "don't be frivolous" response.

Not accepted (or perhaps not seen) was the principle that, if a human is essential to the functioning of an enterprise, s/he's the equal in one sense to every other human involved in making the enterprise work. Unarguably, differencing occurs when you consider the cost of replacing a component.

It costs a cleaner far less to become a cleaner than it does a biologist to become a biologist. Each, in fairness, deserves suitable compensation for his/her outlay in becoming what s/he has, and so the biologist is paid more than the cleaner. That I can live with as long as payment to each follows that principle.

But what do CEOs have? An MBA? A PhD in Economics or the like? Experience? Luck? Smarts? Ability? Brass? Most likely, the last five. My principle works on the degree, not on the last five. How do you fix a fair compensation on those things? I don't know and obviously few others do either. Hence, we're into - let's be honest - bribing. What else do you call it when someone says "I'll give you more money than the other lot to lead us". That's when greed and ego on the one hand negotiaste with greed and accessible wealth on the other to set an upper limit to the bribe.

And with such people as CEOs, we wonder why organizations behave as they do?

I love this planet :woot: !

Howard / SPC

[antiochus]

Dan wrote:
Union-bashing is only done by the ignorant or the self serving.

So which am I Dan, ignorant or self-serving? As you do not know me, judge wisely. After I made my posting, a tiler turned up on my doorstep. He’s here to quote on the bathroom being retiled. During our friendly exchange of banter he told me the company he works for is great that he loves going to work. He also told me that last week he did not attend a union meeting and was visited by a couple of bikkies asking him to explain why he didn’t turn up and to warn him not to do it again. Now this sort of action is dismissed by the leader of the Labor party, Mr. Bill protector of union corruption Shorten. Is this the Australia people want, because if it isn’t then voting for Labor is a vote for organised crime.

As for the rest of your comment, sorry but it’s the typical leftie mumbo jumbo belting out the us and them theme (rich and poor). Have you ever own a business Dan? And where does personal responsibility come into it? Some people are poor because they have made bad choices in life and some have never taken a risk in their life. One non Australian resident I was talking to was so surprised that the Australian system rewards people who make bad life decisions.

Howard wrote:
I probably wouldn't lay the blame for the nation's ills at the feet of unions alone…..

The union is one of the many problems that needs addressing.

Howard wrote:
But sadly, in this day and age, it seems the "me-minded" are the majority.

How right you are. I vote for what I believe is the good of the country. So whoever Labor of Liberal fits the bill they get my vote. Pensioners vote for whoever will give them the best benefits, students for the same reason and so on and so on. I visited a Buddhist temple in Northern Thailand that was situated on a high hill. While I was sitting on the steps taking in the view a Buddhist monk joined me. He had travelled throughout Australia and was familiar with where I lived. I asked him what his observations were of Australians and he replied Australians were selfish and fearful. In his eyes, Australians were extremely materialistic (the greed). Because of this Australians are fearful of losing what they have. When I am in Thailand with my expatriate friends, whom we call the United Nations, because we are the minority, many of our conversations reflect on our home societies. Those who come from Australia and New Zealand in the group all are in agreement that Australia and New Zealand, the people have become so insular. It is now possible to live in an apartment and not know your neighbour. In Thailand I know my neighbours and they always say hello.

Howard wrote:
The system of government we have in Australia is essentially the same in every country with pretensions to democracy. The people of the nation elect representatives entrusted to carry the opinions and desires of the populace into a process of discussion and decision from which come wise laws. It is these laws which are meant to form the basis of "government" - that is "government" in the sense of regulating, of restraining the excesses of those who might seek advantage for themselves to the peril of their fellow citizens.

What has crept into Australian politics is the prime minister, whoever that maybe, believes they have a mandate to implement their personal vision of what they think Australia should be. So much for the voice of the people and their vision.

Howard wrote:
And so we get back to education. Those who learn they have a past may come to believe they have a future (I don't know who said that but I love it). More down-to-earth, knowledge really is empowering. If the "we-minded" of Australia (and b****r the world, say I, it can look after itself) can take back a decent model of education, the worm may turn.

For that to happen, Australia is going to need a lot more Mr Gormsby’s.

Howard wrote:
I once asked a person debating me what was it made a CEO worth so very much more in dollar terms than a cleaner and got the usual "don't be frivolous" response.

My uncle was CEO of NRC both Australia and Asia. This is back in the 60’s. When he left university, he started as a clerk at NRC and at the end of the day had to sweep the floor. He rose through the ranks through merit. My uncle was responsible for buying what is known as the NRC building in North Sydney. He retired some time back and when I asked whether he got a pay out in his days he said it was small but he had a good salary at NRC. He was quite disgusted by what CEO’s get today. He strongly believed the money should stay in the company and not be distributed in overpaid bonuses. However, my uncle was of the old school and also thought of the good of the company. In my eyes he was a great man.

[Vindex]

MODERATOR GREEN (can't go it via the work computer!)

Gentlemen

This may be an Off Topic conversation but may I please remind you all of the basic rules of the Forum and keep the personal comments and sniping off the Boards and keep to the subject at hand.

Thank you

.

[Spurius Papirius Cursor]

Hi Guys,

I take Moi's point. Discussion has drifted too far off topic and too far into the contentious zone for comfort.

My original intent was to have a poke at the Courier Mail for its anti-intellectual standpoint, not to provoke friction. I did encourage the discussion in the direction it went and for that I do apologize.

I'll call it a day on this thread.

Cheers

Howard / SPC