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Tesserarius - rank or role?
#16
Quote: On the battlefield there was no need for a contubernium leader.
You think so? If the contubernium was operating in a single file as part of an 8-deep formation (or 2 half files as part of a formation 4 deep), the caput contubernium could be the ones passing along the orders; you really don't hear all the shouted orders when in battle lest you're next to the commanders.

Quote: Looking to the several roster lists we have from roman units, the Tesserarius seems to be clearly a rank, not just a role. Nevertheless, we know nothing about his duties, except that he forwarded the tessera. So most propably he had additional duties in the office of the centurio, like the signifer, the optio and most propably a librarius. Of course there is a theory, that the only real rank of the principales was sesquiplicarius and duplicarius (perhaps sometimes triplicarius). However the modern military term "rank", does not really fit to the roman reality.
I still think more of a pay grade. Duties could vary with such 'rankers', but the name would signify a higher pay grade, and more duties.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#17
I am more interested, what the role of these principales was in daily business; not on the battlefield.

We know, that the signifer was a kind of paymaster of the centuria, managing the accounts of all the soldiers. According to some sources, he was also involved in logistics. But so where other principales. The optio seems to be responsible for daily operations of any kind. The tesserarius for the tessera. But well, thats not enough to keep him busy all day long. Some historians argue, that there was also a librarius in every centuria, but there is no clear evidence for librarii on the level of centuria.

If we look to the accommodation of a centurio in a camp, his house had several rooms. Perhaps one of these rooms was an office (orderly room), where optio, signifer, tesserarius and librarius dealt with all the paper work, if not busy outdoors? We don't know. As we don't know, how exactly the labor division was amongst the principales.

However, I am sure, that the duties of the tesserarius were more versatile, than moving the tessera around once per day.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#18
Quote: You think so? If the contubernium was operating in a single file as part of an 8-deep formation (or 2 half files as part of a formation 4 deep), the caput contubernium could be the ones passing along the orders; you really don't hear all the shouted orders when in battle lest you're next to the commanders.

Even in this case, there is no need that he has to be a sesquiplicarius. As mentioned above, there is no evidence, for a leader of the contubernium and his rank.

If a smaller team of a centuria, lets say 1 contubernium was sent outdoors for a special job, the leader of this team was called temporarily praepositus. But it seems, that this was highly situational.

I remember my time in german military. We have been with 8 privates in 1 room. The leader of this room (which was no official military unit) usually was:

1. the highest rank private, if equal rank, the eldest.
2. one guy who was elected informally
3. this poor guy who was alone in this room, when this pissed off seargant came in

So it might have been similar informal in the roman army.

We should also consider, that about 30% of the legionaries have been immunes. So from this 8 men, one was perhaps reporting to the custos armorum, the other to this other immunis repairing caligulae. the next was reporting to the optio of the valetudinarium, and one was a librarius cornicularii legionis.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#19
Quote:Even in this case, there is no need that he has to be a sesquiplicarius. As mentioned above, there is no evidence, for a leader of the contubernium and his rank.
If a smaller team of a centuria, lets say 1 contubernium was sent outdoors for a special job, the leader of this team was called temporarily praepositus. But it seems, that this was highly situational.
I agree there's no evidence for a rank like that, but I was arguing for a role on the battle field. And in that I think we agree. But unlike you I think that this role was combined with a pay grade, and a name. Possibly, of course. The Late Roman equivalent may have been the biarchus, or Vegetius (probably theoretical decanus/dekarch), even though this too is purely theoretical.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#20
Quote: I agree there's no evidence for a rank like that, but I was arguing for a role on the battle field. And in that I think we agree. But unlike you I think that this role was combined with a pay grade, and a name. Possibly, of course. The Late Roman equivalent may have been the biarchus, or Vegetius (probably theoretical decanus/dekarch), even though this too is purely theoretical.

I am not sure, if we agree on the battlefield. A centuria was about 10 men broad and 8 men deep. Thats not that much space. Small enough to hear your centurio or optio crying. Better than 10 men crying around, is'nt it?

It is also curious, that we have (partial) evidence about a contubernium leader in the late roman army. But no evidence for the imperial time, where we have much more epigraphic sources. So if there was a dedicated rank, we should have found at least one damn tombstone showing this rank, right? Not talking about all these tablets, papyri, ostraka, ....
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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#21
Quote:I am not sure, if we agree on the battlefield. A centuria was about 10 men broad and 8 men deep. Thats not that much space. Small enough to hear your centurio or optio crying. Better than 10 men crying around, is'nt it?

Again, I can only speak for riot situations but within a normal UK unit we would be roughly 12-15 broad and 2 deep and the team commanders still need to repeat the unit commanders orders to make sure the shield men on the front line hear them.

It isn't just the noise, it is also because the men in the front are very focussed on what is happening in front of them, the helmet cuts your hearing down a bit and the physiological effects of a high stress situation can create swelling in the ear canal limiting your ability to hear.
Adam

No man resisted or offered to stand up in his defence, save one only, a centurion, Sempronius Densus, the single man among so many thousands that the sun beheld that day act worthily of the Roman empire.
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#22
Quote:It isn't just the noise, it is also because the men in the front are very focussed on what is happening in front of them, the helmet cuts your hearing down a bit and the physiological effects of a high stress situation can create swelling in the ear canal limiting your ability to hear.
I totally agree there. Even disciplined men get focussed and may not immediately follow the orders given. I not for sure that in marle last month I even had the hit one of our guys with my spatha to get him to follow the command 'redi' (pull back) - the guys would just not disengage fromt he enemy! :-D

I sure acted as a caput contubernium then - and it wasn't even MY contubernium!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#23
Frank,

In your personal service example of the 8 men in your room, can I both confirm that this was still at the time of conscription and that you were still all members of one 'section'? Certainly if the latter, then did you still have a section commander? Times are a bit different now, for now 'Section Corporals' tend to have separate rooms.

Returning to the thread and your wondering what else the Tesserarius did - I actually don't have any worry over finding anything else if indeed he was just just holding a 'role'. That a Tesserarius was not just a particular role played by an immunis like all the others; those who had armour skills, weapon skills, the legion's 'professionals'.

Quote:................
I sure acted as a caput contubernium then - and it wasn't even MY contubernium!

Perfect example of need!
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#24
Quote:It is also curious, that we have (partial) evidence about a contubernium leader in the late roman army. But no evidence for the imperial time, where we have much more epigraphic sources.
A mortarium waster was found in a pit in the Neronian fortress at Usk with a graffito cut in the rim before firing reading: Pe]lveis Contub(e)rnio Messoris, 'Mixing bowl for the contubernium of Messor' (Britannia VII (1976), 391, no.66). Messor was evidently caput contubernii in the 1st century.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#25
Quote:Messor was evidently caput contubernii in the 1st century.

Is that not widely known, or perhaps debatable? I've read several publications recently that flatly deny the existence of the caput contubernii in the 1st century.
Nathan Ross
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#26
I realised after posting that I had let my enthusiasm run away with me. Vegetius says that caput contubernii was the term used in his day and that decanus had been the earlier equivalent. Since we do not know precisely whether either term was used in the 1st century, let us call him simply 'contubernium leader'.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#27
Quote:
Frank post=340909 Wrote:On the battlefield there was no need for a contubernium leader.
You think so? If the contubernium was operating in a single file as part of an 8-deep formation (or 2 half files as part of a formation 4 deep), the caput contubernium could be the ones passing along the orders; you really don't hear all the shouted orders when in battle lest you're next to the commanders.

Quote: Looking to the several roster lists we have from roman units, the Tesserarius seems to be clearly a rank, not just a role. Nevertheless, we know nothing about his duties, except that he forwarded the tessera. So most propably he had additional duties in the office of the centurio, like the signifer, the optio and most propably a librarius. Of course there is a theory, that the only real rank of the principales was sesquiplicarius and duplicarius (perhaps sometimes triplicarius). However the modern military term "rank", does not really fit to the roman reality.
I still think more of a pay grade. Duties could vary with such 'rankers', but the name would signify a higher pay grade, and more duties.

But then "immunis" doesn't say higher pay grade, but others seem to do so.
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#28
Quote:But then "immunis" doesn't say higher pay grade, but others seem to do so.

Thats the difference. There are tons of "Immunes" in the roman army. It is usually just a job. Most of them are simplaris, but some of them were higher payed. Just look to the ongoing dispute, if the custos armorum was a principalis or immunis and if he always was a sesquiplicarius or not.

The Tesserarius clearly shows up in roster-lists as the lowest ranked principlalis.

We should also not mix up pay rank with military rank. I lately have read an article, where an historian doubt, that every Tesserarius was a sesquiplicarius. He also doubts, that every optio and signifer was a duplicarius. And he had some good arguments. Vice versa, a miles gregarius could be a duplicarius. Some medals came with higher pay rank. And some technical staff was also payed higher without beeing a principalis.
Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas
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