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Pila range and how?
#16
Quote:Ancient sources tell us.
Roman troops would lay aside Pila and not throw them when the tactical situation demanded.

Extra Pila carried into battle by servants and resupplied to the Centuries as the situation allowed.

Could I trouble you for a citation, please? I believe you, but I would like to read it for myself. I'm amazed that I haven't come noticed that. :oops:
I find the theory of slaves carrying extra pilum to be extremely plausible. We know that the army had slaves, and there is evidence that well-to-do individual soldiers possibly had slaves with them while they were in service.
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
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#17
Respectfully, I'd like to address some of the points in this long thread, that John has summarized in the previous post:
Two (or more) Pila into combat possibilities:
One stuck into the ground.

But if you walk forward a couple of steps to throw, which is needful to get body weight behind the throw, what then? Turn around, retrieve the pilum, then turn back around and repeat? Remember that the front three or more ranks would be throwing simultaneously. Talk about disorganization!


One held in the shield hand.

I simply can't see how that could be done with a curved scutum. I've tried it more than once, more than one way to find an easy way to do it. No luck. Incredibly difficult as it is, a pilum can be carried along with the shield, but all the weight has to be supported by the thumb, holding the pilum at right angles to the grip/weight of the shield.


Extra Pila in the cart with the Ballista

Well, fine, or in another cart (think 80 pila per century for the spares--not much room left for the ballista and operators) but the cart would not be up in the middle of the ranks, and even if it were, the passing out the pila just wouldn't be quick enough and effective enough, in my opinion, to be something that would be done. How would we suppose that these would be distributed when the line was under pressure from incoming enemies?


Extra Pila carried into battle by servants and resupplied to the Centuries as the situation allowed.

Do we have any evidence servants were even at the battle front, in the lines, carrying anything? I'd almost rather have them carry me a drink of water than another javelin..at least after a couple of hours of exertion in the sun. There were servants, mule drivers, and ballista men in the back lines, no doubt, and those who managed the carts, wagons and the supply/baggage train. They didn't go down to the front lines and abandon their carts and all the gear, did they?

I'm not griping or criticizing, honest. I just would like to see how that all works out. In my mind, it simply won't work at all, So help me see it, would you?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#18
Incicentally, I suspect they could not throw a pilum 30 meters. That's a mighty long throw for a heavy javelin.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#19
The Pila employment references are collected here: http://www.ludusmilitis.org/index.php?topic=30.0

The EXTRA Pila has only indirect references and information as far as I have found so far.
There are some references to there being extra weapons on hand and those being EMPLOYED by servants on occasion and their are references that support elements both Legionary (medical) and non Legionary accompanied the the Legions into battle
in support roles. I do not have those collected yet. I feel the whole topic of Direct support to the battle formations demands a whole separate thread and research effort.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
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#20
M. Demetrius,

In reference to camp servants (Calones), according to some sources, they were armed. One example is Plutarch, Life of Marius, 19, where armed camp servants actually STARTED a battle. I don't think this was the first time they did that either, I can't recall exactly where, it was during one of Rome's wars against the Macedonians, but I believe a similar situation happened.

So you have one calone for every eight milites (at the least). Either calone one shared by the combined principalis or each had their own, as having your own servant would surely be a huge incentive for gaining rank. Centurions definitely had at least one of their own, if not more, to take care of his addition kit, wagons, mules, etc.
So for a eighty man century you have at the least twelve armed calones, but probably more, doing what at the back of the formation in a battle?

Though there is no evidence and this is pure speculation, they could be doing the following:
- Assisting in fighting by using swords spears and missiles gathered from spoils of old battles to defend the centuries flanks
- Giving water to the men
- Tending to wounded or even escorting/carrying the wounded back to the camp
- Gather up discarded weapons from wounded or dead for later use and police javelins thrown by the enemy and disseminate them to the Roman soldiers.

Additionally, there is another possibility. Before the battle, while still in camp, an enterprising centurion could simply order a few mules from his century to be loaded with spare weapons, to include pilum, and water in skins or jugs, as well as rolled up tents to be used as tarps to drag wounded/dead back to camp. During the battle, they hang out behind the century. A few of the calones could have been put in charge of these mules and disseminate weapons, water and wine, maybe handing out pieces of old bread, etc.

One held in the shield hand.
I simply can't see how that could be done with a curved scutum. I've tried it more than once, more than one way to find an easy way to do it. No luck. Incredibly difficult as it is, a pilum can be carried along with the shield, but all the weight has to be supported by the thumb, holding the pilum at right angles to the grip/weight of the shield.


The block of wood holding the flange from the heavy pilum shank rests on the top of the shield, which supports its weight. The thumb simply holds the pilum in place, not support the weight of the pilum. It does not need to be done for extended periods, just long enough to throw the other pilum. Say 15-30 seconds.
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#21
There are many instances in the sources where the throwing of javelins just before the infantry engagement is described as a standard Roman tactic and I think one cannot doubt that it was. Here are only some of them I found interesting to add to the examples already given.

Plutarchus, Pompeius, ch.69, s.3, Plutarch directly calls the pilum throwing a customary tactic, as he does a lot in his work, but adds here the interesting detail that it was customary for the strongest Romans to do so.

Plutarchus, Marius, ch.20, s.8, Caius Marius (who is credited the innovation of replacing the two iron nails of the pilum with a wooden one) instructs his men to stand and wait patiently as the Teutones are marching against them, then hurl their hyssoi (standard term for the pilum), draw their swords and charge to push the enemy downhills with their shields.

Plutarchus, Sulla, ch.28, s.6, At Signium, when the men of Sulla were being attacked as they were digging a trench, they actually planted their hyssoi into the ground and attacked the enemy with their swords. So, interestingly enough, although they carried them with them, they did not take them to the fight.

Appianus, Celtica (fragmenta), ch.1, s.3, Caius Sulpicius commanded the men of the first rank to simultaneously hurl their hyssoi at the Boii and then immediately kneel down so that the second rankers could do the same. These in turn should do the same and so on until all had discharged their pila. Then they should leap up with a shout and charge together. This is particularly interesting for it hints at the pila normally not being thrown as massively as is usually suggested and at the same time offers a system of successive throws.

Another interesting quote that has to do with missile use during close combat is Plutarchus, Sulla, ch.18, s.6, where the Mithridatean phalanx of Archaelaos was actually thrown into disorder by missiles thrown from behind the Roman ranks.
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#22
Quote:...................
Appianus, Celtica (fragmenta), ch.1, s.3, Caius Sulpicius commanded the men of the first rank to simultaneously hurl their hyssoi at the Boii and then immediately kneel down so that the second rankers could do the same. These in turn should do the same and so on until all had discharged their pila. Then they should leap up with a shout and charge together. This is particularly interesting for it hints at the pila normally not being thrown as massively as is usually suggested and at the same time offers a system of successive throws............

Wow - apart from a 'thank you' for that a really valuable source - I applaud your encyclopaedic reference bank ability.

It makes a great deal of sense, doesn't require any convoluted manoeuvres and also suggests that the pilum is thrown from a standing start (which is reasonable). Without moving does allow some of the other things suggested here (like possibly sticking in the ground, but certainly laying down any others).

As to all these servants/slaves, however - that I'll have to ask elsewhere.......
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#23
Quote:The block of wood holding the flange from the heavy pilum shank rests on the top of the shield, which supports its weight. The thumb simply holds the pilum in place, not support the weight of the pilum. It does not need to be done for extended periods, just long enough to throw the other pilum. Say 15-30 seconds.
Have you actually tried walking a bit, throwing a pilum and successfully negotiating this maneuver while holding a scutum in your left hand? I wasn't able to do it.

And it would take more like ten minutes to get all the soldiers lined up, sorted out, put in place, and advanced to the battle line. 30 seconds isn't enough time. We're dealing with thousands of men, and even one century itself probably occupied nearly the space of a tennis court when in open order.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#24
Another aspect. IF there were additional Pila. Could the rear ranks continue to throw pila at the enemy even while the front ranks are engaged?
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
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#25
Quote:Another aspect. IF there were additional Pila. Could the rear ranks continue to throw pila at the enemy even while the front ranks are engaged?

I wouldn't think so. Wasn't the purpose of the rear ranks to act as "pushers" for the men in the front ranks?
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
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#26
Possible, likely, and documented are not the same thing. Practically anything that is within the realm of physical ability is "possible."

the question still stands, though. Has anyone here actually held a scutum and pilum in the left hand, advanced and thrown a pilum with the right hand? I simply was unable to figure out how it could be done. And passing pointed objects forward from rear ranks seems just a little bit unlikely. But I'm just an untrained modern guy. Maybe the Romans had figured out a way to manage it.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#27
Quote:
jkaler48 post=340755 Wrote:Ancient sources tell us.
Roman troops would lay aside Pila and not throw them when the tactical situation demanded.
Could I trouble you for a citation, please? I believe you, but I would like to read it for myself. I'm amazed that I haven't come noticed that.
Tyler

Here are a few mentions of laying aside the pila and drawing gladii that I have run across. There may be other instances; I'm still working my way through Livius and noting all of his mentions of tactics & weapon wielding.


Caesar, Bello Gallico, 1.52.4: Relictis pilis comminus gladiis pugnatum est. (Throwing aside [therefore] their javelins, they fought with swords hand to hand.)

Caesar, Bello Gallico, 7.88.2 Nostri omissis pilis gladiis rem gerunt. (Our troops, laying aside their javelins, carry on the engagement with their swords.)

Livius 2.30.12: . . . defixis pilis stare suos iussit: ubi ad manum uenisset hostis, tum coortos tota ui gladiis rem gerere. (He commanded his men to plant their spears in the ground and stand still until the enemy had come to close quarters; then they were to assail them with all their might, and settle the question with the sword.)

Livius 7.16.5: piloque posito stricto gladio in hostem impetum facit. (Then, laying down his javelin, he drew his sword and charged the foe.)

Plutarch, Sulla 18.4: . . . the Romans threw down their javelins, drew their swords, and sought to dash the pikes aside.
Mark Graef
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#28
Not having any source, just thinking practically...

Before receiving an attack... Could not rearward soldiers pass forward pila to the "throwers" closer up? Or even the "shields" up front could plant their pila for the "throwers" a few rows back?
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#29
Quote:Not having any source, just thinking practically...
Before receiving an attack... Could not rearward soldiers pass forward pila to the "throwers" closer up? Or even the "shields" up front could plant their pila for the "throwers" a few rows back?
No problem. Same with plumbatae - IF the front rank has enoug space/time to throw these at the enemy, it would be silly for the rear ranks to throw them (as long as you don't want the entire formation for a single 'mass throw'). So I think they were handed forward. Of course missiles can be throw after the formations make contact, and it was part of Roman army doctrine to do so throughout the battle. But for pila that seems wasteful, as these are charge breakers without a very good range.
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#30
M. Demetrius,

the question still stands, though. Has anyone here actually held a scutum and pilum in the left hand, advanced and thrown a pilum with the right hand? I simply was unable to figure out how it could be done.

Here are a couple photos to describe what I was writing about, I hope this helps:

Front Profile
Rear profile

Though in this case the reenactor didn't hike up the heavy pilum a few inches more to support the flange block on the top of the shield, he still supports the weight of the pilum using only his thumb.

And it would take more like ten minutes to get all the soldiers lined up, sorted out, put in place, and advanced to the battle line. 30 seconds isn't enough time. We're dealing with thousands of men, and even one century itself probably occupied nearly the space of a tennis court when in open order.

I don't know why forming a line configures into this method, I am referring to an individual task, not a collective one. Its only necessary to pinch the heavy pilum for the amount of time it takes someone to ready and throw the light pilum. Marching toward enemy=hold both pilum in right hand, rest on shoulder if you want. Enemy in range=pinch heavy pilum with shield hand thumb, throw light pilum (15-30 seconds to complete).
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