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Use of Leather as armor
#46
Ave, Dan,
Again, thank you from Jaqui and I for all the info. It is nice to know that a relatively fit person could stay afloat even wearing chain....at least until they could get to some piece of floating debris. BTW, Dan, did you try to get the mail off in the water.? The reason, I'm asking is that there was a book done in English called "Bireme" about the making of a diorama of a Republican and Carthaginian Bireme seafight and most of the survivors of the Carthaginian ship seem to have stripped down to their underwear. Again, Thanks for the infor.
Salve,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#47
Ave, y'all
Antonia brought up a good point.....to wit ; Legionaries, like today's military, were highly trained and skilled and therefore it would be a waste of money for them not to have quality armor, unlike Antonia's family records going back to the early years of Britannia which say that a number of family members wore nothing Woad and a smile in combat.....which she says made some of her ancestors......."Woad Warriors".....I know, Mr. Moderator......I'll shut up with that pun.........
Salve,
Vitruvius and Antonia............aka Larry and Jaqui Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#48
If the hamata fits like it should, you would be very hard pressed to get it off while treading water. It's hard enough on dry land with no stress, no arrows zipping around you, no extra weight of metal dragging you under the surface. I can't imagine removing it in the water, honest.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#49
No I didn't try taking it off. I've found the easiest way to remove mail is to relax the body and bend over so that your hands can touch the ground. With a little shrugging the mail rolls off and falls to the ground. Maybe inverting yourself while under water will do the same thing.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#50
Good Evening. Y'all,
Thank you Dan and Dave. I'm going to check with some S.C.A. members.......they are "unique" enough, trying to remove the hamata per Dan's idea should appeal to them.lol I'll pass on the results when I get them.
Salve and a Good night to all
Vitruvius .................aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#51
I've never tried it, either. But somehow, if the water is over my head, going head down to shed hamata, after getting the belt and balteus off, well, it sounds less than easy. Hard to tread water with the feet UP and the head DOWN. :whistle:
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#52
Ave, Dave,
As Antonia says, one can walk across the sea floor a treat and one doesn't need a weight belt. She tried it.......some years back. (see my last entry above), lol,lol. You can tread water, but unless you are built like Hercules, you're not gonna go very far. Also, she said, the water makes any leather swell. One had better be able to hold one's breath for quite a while...... How about that ? Married 18 years and STILL finding out new things about Her, lol.
Salve,
Vitruvius ......aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#53
Quote:No I didn't try taking it off. I've found the easiest way to remove mail is to relax the body and bend over so that your hands can touch the ground. With a little shrugging the mail rolls off and falls to the ground. Maybe inverting yourself while under water will do the same thing.

...and they never found the hole the pilum made which killed you! Wink
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
[Image: fectio.png]
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#54
Quote:
Diocle post=339048 Wrote:I state that, even today, NATO would not be able to equip 300.000 men with kevlar armors!

Nobody on Earth (and when I write nobody I mean nobody) was even able to equip 300.000 men with iron armors! Because this It's simply not possible!

Few tens thousands men during the middle age means nothing compared to 300.000 men during the Antiquity.

The numbers are an impassable obstacle for the Fantasy tale about the Roman Army clad in iron!
According to Statistics Canada, there were 70,000 police officers in Canada in 2012. Each of those has a body armour of synthetic fibres which will stop handgun bullets. ( http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux...5a-eng.htm ) When you add the Canadian Forces, and police reserves, private security companies, and so on, the total would be over 200,000 armoured men just in Canada. If we add in Italy, I am sure that the total would reach 300,000 armoured soldiers and police without asking the Americans to lend some armour Smile

Quote:I end up with this famous quote (from the site of A.D.), from the 'De Bello Civilis' I hope you'll be able to translate two lines of Latin dear hamata experts!

"'omnes fere milites aut ex coactis aut ex centonibus aut ex coriis tunicas aut tegimenta fecerant quibus tela vitarent'

Anyway the words for you, dear friends, are: Cento, Coactilia, and Coriis tegimenta......meditate good people, meditate! ;-)
The quote about Caesar's soldiers at Dyrrachium making armour for themselves out of available materials has been discussed many times on this site. It tells us two things: that on this occasion soldiers did make improvised body armour, and that this was not usual. If everyone already had armour of cloth or basketwork or quilting, they would not have to make them when they were besieged by Pompeius and his archers!


But NATO today represents the Alliance of industrial countries of the XXI century! So you need to adapt the numbers to the actual situation.

The policemen and the NATO soldiers are getting kevlar armors for twenty or thirty years, am I wrong?
Do you understand that you iron rings devoted, you are saying that the Romans produced iron mails for something like seven hundreds years? 700 years producing iron rings for 300.000 men or 400.000 men? Com'on return from the wonderful world of OZ, the reality is less fascinating but more ...'realistic'....

Do you understand that this is a Fantasy tale?

Do you understand that from China to India, nobody in Ancient History (before the industrial Age) has been ever able to produce such an incredible amount of iron rings continiously for 700 years or more??????

During WWI, WWII, VietNam war and all the modern Conflicts the soldiers went to war without any kind protection! They are only men, workers, proletariat in arms nothing more...their lives have always been ....expendable!!

Why do you think that for the Roman proletarians in arms, the situation was differnt?

The Roman Legionaries and Auxiliaries weren't Space Marines belonging to the WarHammer40.0000 Sience Fiction Universe, the Roman soldiers were ..... expendable! (as today!)


Anyway what I'm trying to say here is that I find really wrong, the lack of intellectual respect for people like the guys of Ars Dimicandi, only because they see the matter in a different way.

About the amount of iron mail, leather, padded cloth, linen and their amount, nobody has the truth in his poket, so please guys, even if you disagree with those (like me) who think that[b] actually the Romans and the Greeks and all the Italic peoples,and all the ancient peoples used massively the Organic armors, [/b ]try to respect the different opinions, the Truth isn't on your side for Divine Sentence, your opinion is interesting but it's not the Divine Truth, the Divine Truth doesn't exist and it never existed.
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#55
Diocle, my friend, you seem to be coming out very strongly here, but I don't really think that what everyone is saying is that every single Roman legionary was clad head-to-toe in armor (more specifically hamata or segmentata). In fact, from what I've seen over the years, the consensus from RAT would be that the Roman military was almost certainly much more varied in equipment and appearance than most would believe. As well, I don't doubt the use of organic elements in Roman armor, including leather being used for padded arming garments (such as a subarmalis). However, what I do have a problem with is a Roman leather cuirass - I simply believe we have no reason to believe that the Romans made them at all. Perhaps someday I will have reason to believe so, but as of the moment I have seen nothing even remotely convincing (even in statue/artistic form).
However, regarding it being a physical possibility that the Romans could have supplied armies to such an encompassing extent with iron armor - I would say never underestimate their industry and organizational capabilities. From everything that I've seen (primarily from discussions on RAT) regarding Roman economy and production, it really is shocking how great the downfall of civilization was post Rome. As the years progress, I believe the trend amongst academic studies on the scale and capacity of the Roman economy tends to dispel earlier notions of their limitations and broadens their economic functions dramatically.
This is not to say that I disagree with the Romans utilizing various forms of textiles and hides in their war kit, but I do believe the best form of defense was in metallic armor, and the Roman economy and later the Roman state was quite capable of supplying the legions with a high degree of such protection.
Alexander
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#56
Quote:In the end I think that the guys of Ars Dimicandi are doing a wonderful and serious work with the help of historians and archologists, and their point of view has to be respected (even if not condivided.) and I find it more realistic than the dreamworld of the Roman Ironclad Army!

So again use Google and read their work it's intersting and serious.

Here the link to the page of Ars Dimicandi:

http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000c6.htm)
It is not serious work. They start with an imagined premise, that "Romans wore leather armour", and then go looking for evidence that supports that preconception. That is not how serious research is conducted.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#57
Quote:Good Evening. Y'all,
Thank you Dan and Dave. I'm going to check with some S.C.A. members.......they are "unique" enough, trying to remove the hamata per Dan's idea should appeal to them.lol I'll pass on the results when I get them.
Salve and a Good night to all
Vitruvius .................aka Larry Mager
Tell them not to try it with galvanised mail. The chlorine in the pool reacted with the zinc and totally destroyed my hauberk. Luckily it was just an old butted one that I made myself.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#58
Ave y'all,
It was Antonia, about 20 years ago with 15 th C. 14 ga. German plate complete with sallet type helm......She said she could walk all over the bottom of the area of tthe pool at Marcon @ The Radisson. When we get some Roman mail, we'll both try it......
Salve,
Vitruvius..................aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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#59
Quote:During WWI, WWII, VietNam war and all the modern Conflicts the soldiers went to war without any kind protection! They are only men, workers, proletariat in arms nothing more...their lives have always been ....expendable!!

Why do you think that for the Roman proletarians in arms, the situation was differnt?
I don't agree with you because I have seen very little evidence that many Roman soldiers wore cloth or leather armour. I see three good pieces of evidence for Roman soldiers wearing cloth or leather armour (the cuisses from Dura, flexible muscled cuirasses in art, and Caesar's description of the Siege of Dyrrachium), against hundreds of pieces of evidence that most soldiers from 100 BCE to 400 CE wore mail, scale, or plate of iron or copper alloy. I see that some times, societies focused on raising many soldiers, and other times on raising well-equipped soldiers. Some societies used lots of cloth and leather armour, and others used little or none. If you look at any country in western Europe from 1300 to 1600, I think you will find that about as many men wore armour of iron as had been soldiers under the Romans. The Romans were richer and more skilled in many ways, so they could produce even more armour. On the whole, that is not enough evidence to make me believe that many Roman soldiers wore cloth or leather armour.

You might want to read Suetonius, Divus Augustus 81-82 again before you cite it as evidence for Augustus wearing cloth armour. It describes how Augustus was sensitive to the weather so wore many layers of clothing in winter. When Plutarch, Crassus 24.4 states that Parthian arrows broke the equipment and pushed through both hard and soft coverings alike, he could be contrasting bronze and leather armour, or wicker shields and iron helmets. In addition, the passage technically refers to the light-armed infantry.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#60
"hard" and "soft" armour could also refer to solid cuirasses and flexible mail.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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