Use of Leather as armor

[Robert]

I really do wonder why this keeps resurfacing. The use of leather as a functional armor has been clubbed to death many times before. It just has no stopping power. It is just cheap, looks cool, is much lighter then the same thickness of metal ..... and is totaly useless in real life. And yes, Maximus did use leather armor in Gladiator

[M. Demetrius]

Yeah. By The Way, what color was a Roman military tunic, anyway??
:dizzy:

Hey, you! Out of the room. Now!

[Robert]

Why, RED of course!! :woot: Everybody KNOWS that ...... RED hides the bloodstains :whistle: .

[Alexand96]

And yes, Maximus did use leather armor in Gladiator

Yet again, you are wrong my friend. He wore RUBBER armor covered in leather....just like the Romans did. You see, Ridley Scott doesn't do anything in his films if it isn't 100% accurate.

[Dan Howard]

I really do wonder why this keeps resurfacing. The use of leather as a functional armor has been clubbed to death many times before. It just has no stopping power. It is just cheap, looks cool, is much lighter then the same thickness of metal ..... and is totaly useless in real life. And yes, Maximus did use leather armor in Gladiator

Except that we know that leather was used for armour by many cultures in many times and places and it can be fashioned to stop weapons on the battlefield. The problem is that there is very little evidence for leather armour being used by the Romans (none at all for musculata or segmentata) and that, in order to provide resistance to weapons it has to be be thicker and heavier than an equivalent item made of metal. Functional armour made of leather cannot be made to look like the sculptures.

[M. Demetrius]

Best sarcasm I've seen all week, Alex! ;-) :!:

[Robert]

Thick leather "armour" may stand up to some punishment and is certainly better then just cloth or nothing at all between you and a weapon. The reference to other cultures in other times should also be looked at in combination with the kind of weapon to be repelled. However, any sharp iron object (spearhead, arrowhead, bladetip) delivered with force will penetrate leather with ease. Rawhide is a bit more resilliant, but the person wearing it is still betting his life on it's effectiveness. By the way, I am not aware of ANY evidence of leather being used by the Roman as armour.

[Vitruvius]

Ave,yall,
I don't normally mix genres, but having, years ago, worked on the fringes, doing piecework costuming and Science-fiction costumes for sale,I made a number of connections with folks in the movie industry and when going to a S-F Convention, I was introduced in 2004 to Ridley Scott.
I was able, thanks to Mr. Scott's kindness, to talk with him about "Gladiator" for approximately 15 minutes. One thing I DO remember about the discussion was that, Mr. Crowe's army armor WAS foam rubber covered with suit-weight leather. I( agree with Alexander.....lol). What it comes down to as far as movies go is this......Mr. Scott was basically making a "love song" to the old movies he enjoyed. So he could either be 100% accurate, or he could have a very enjoyable flick. Before anyone says anything else, let's just say, I would not have wanted to wear a subarmalis under steel armor under those kleig-style lights and reflectors and be required to do a lot of the stunts on horseback. Most people of today are not willing to put up with that. I am not upset with anyone else's view about re-enacting, I'm just trying to explain why most of the movies are not 100% accurate....Antonia and I hoot and holler about similar problems in Medieval Movies with regards to that armor.
Vituvius.....aka Larry Mager

[Sean Manning]

Thick leather "armour" may stand up to some punishment and is certainly better then just cloth or nothing at all between you and a weapon. The reference to other cultures in other times should also be looked at in combination with the kind of weapon to be repelled. However, any sharp iron object (spearhead, arrowhead, bladetip) delivered with force will penetrate leather with ease. Rawhide is a bit more resilliant, but the person wearing it is still betting his life on it's effectiveness. By the way, I am not aware of ANY evidence of leather being used by the Roman as armour.

I am sure that they just slipped your mind, but you must have overlooked the famous scale cuisses from Dura Europus (items 441 and 442 in Simon James' book). James is reluctant to say whether it is leather or rawhide, but notes that it does not look like rawhide to him. Because there are so many ways to treat skins, I often say "hide" unless I am sure of which was used.

Hide armour was very common in some places and times, such as Late Bronze Age Southwest Asia, 13th century Mongolia, 13th-14th century Latin Christendom, 16th-18th century Japan. In most of these places and times, the main threat to an armoured warrior was arrows and spears tipped with iron. Men who could clearly afford metal sometimes wore hide: for example, the only armour in Tutankhamun's tomb was a corselet of rawhide scales even though we know that the Egyptians used all-bronze and half bronze, half hide armours. Hide armour can be effective, but it is usually heavier than equally strong metal armour, and it does not seem to have been common in the Roman world.

[Dan Howard]

In the Warring States period in China, one species of Asian rhinoceros was hunted to extinction because its hide was the preferred material from which to make armour.

Villani (14th C) wrote that a cuirass made of four layers of "cordovan leather" renders the wearer impervious to any weapon.

[Dan Howard]

I am not upset with anyone else's view about re-enacting, I'm just trying to explain why most of the movies are not 100% accurate....Antonia and I hoot and holler about similar problems in Medieval Movies with regards to that armor.

Nobody expects an actor to wear proper armour on the set all day. What is infuriating is that it doesn't even LOOK like real armour. Instead of covering the latex with stupid-looking leather it would have been easier and cheaper to spray it with a metallic paint. The costume armour in Lord of the Rings (a fantasy movie) looked more realistic than the armour in many of Scott's "historical" movies. For example, the PVC mail they used looked wonderful on camera. One should also expect latex armour to ACT like real armour. A hollywood arrow can be repelled by a hollywood breastplate just as easily as a real one.

And if Ridley Scott was interested in recreating the Roman movies from his childhood then he shouldn't have pretended that the movie was "historically accurate" and made all the fuss about the historical advisors that he had on site, whose advice he ended up completely ignoring.

[Dan Howard]

In the Warring Sates period in China the Asian Rhinoceros was hunted to extinction because of the desire to make armour from its hide.

Villani (14th C) wrote that a cuirass made of four layers of "cordovan leather" renders the wearer impervious to any weapon.

[Timianus]

What, you mean this wouldn't protect someone???



I'm shocked!

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Dan et all.
I never thought that I would hear myself aggreeing with you, but here I am vociferously agreeing with you. Antonia and I are SOOOOO tired of seeing chain mail,roman or medieval, it doesnt matter, that one could drive a Mack Truck through. the Narnia movies are particularly bad about this. I think that my Biggest disappointment in "Gladiator" WAS the way the musculatas moved!!!! Again, I agree with you Dan, One CANNOT have true protection with leather AND expect it to be as flexible as the statues show!!!!! Pure Imperial Propaganda!!!!!!
I would appreciate it,Dan, if you could and would find the thickness of leather Villani was referring to, Please, as I am curious about similar medieval armor.
Salve,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
P.S. Dan, I hope that I haven't caused You a heart attack by agreeing with you! LOL

[Vitruvius]

Ave,yall,
The reason I need to get an electroplated leather musculata is that I suffered severe injury to my back during my stint in The Navy and it must be more closely fitted than the metal could, The other point is that I have no intention of going into live steel combat, although I do own several sharpened quality "Live Steel"blades. Before any one says " Well, why don't you just buy the plastic musculatas?" 2 reasons....1.) They look even less real thatn electroplated leather and 2.) They DON'T Fit at all.! 3.) Antonia says that the plastic ones don't breath even a little bit.
Salve,
Vitruvius and Antonia......aka Larry and Jaquij Mager