Ave,Y'all
As far as leather as armor goes, check out this website:www.arsdimicondi.net/ad_1_0000c6.htm. use Google translate feature, then lets hear eveyones comments. I found it "fascinating".
Salve and let slip the Dogs of Comments,
Vitruvius...........aka Larry Mager
Ave Dan,
Very Good, Thanks. I do have a question that I would like Your take on, however.
What , in your opinion,did Classis Marines and officers wear during ship to ship combat, during, say, tthe time of Marcus Aurelius? Thanks, and
Salve,
Vitruvius.............aka Larry Mager
Not to intrude on Dan's no doubt better information, I was told fairly convincingly at a Roman camp event, by a person of generally good reputation, that there has been found a leather musculata from some shipwreck that is said to have belonged to a Roman marine. I do not have the site, battle name, or any other information, and he could very well have been misinformed. One thing is pretty certain, though, a soldier falling overboard wearing typical metal armors from a land battle would sink below the water level pretty quickly unless he could find something that floats well in his immediate area. And then, he would be an easy target for the ship-born archers. Better not to fall overboard, I'd say.
Most marines would drown because they didn't know how to swim. It wouldn't matter what armour they wore. Leather armour won't keep someone afloat - they'd just sink a little less quickly.
D'Amato reckons that a leather musculata was found in a Roman shipwreck. Given all the other items that he claimed was leather armour that has turned out not to be, I would wait until someone who knows something about armour examines it before taking it seriously.
Ave Dave,
I got your P.M., Did you get my return P.M.? If not, let me know and I'll just send them through the Board. Thanks again,
Salve, Good Buddy,
Vitruvius.............aka Larry Mager
Hi Richard,
Unfortunately,I couldn't open your picture. BTW, Antonia (Jaqui, my spouse) wants to know, what Frog??????
Yes, I am a fan of the use of leather armour as well............as long as it is boiled.
BTW Russell Crow's General's Musculata was made of Foam Rubber covered with a layer of thin leather. According to a conversation with Janty Yates, the costume designer on "Gladiator", It was supposed to look like a leather musculata with steel shoulder plates. I plan to have 2 Musculatas; one of Matt Lukes' steel musculata and one of leather.......Just don't know whose leather musculata is the best.
Thanks for your input.
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
here is the pic i was referring to ( I am seeking advise on accurate attachments). Couldnt you form your leather cuirass on your iron one?
Regards
Richard
[attachment=7383]PICT0199.JPG[/attachment]
I seem to recall that soldiers were taught to swim as part of their training. This is possibly mentioned in the collected works of R.W. Davies.
Julius Caesar had to swim for safety during the battle of Pharos Island. Frustratingly the source mentions his cloak which was left behind and later taken as a battle trophy by the Alexandrians but nothing else about what he was wearing. I guess even under armour padding would soak up water.
There is also an account of a Centurion in Britain having to swim for safety even though he was wearing two loricas. As usual the sources are vague, leaving this passage open to interpretation. Apologies I am not able to put my hand on this reference at the moment.
I find the attached picture amusing. While Hollywood constantly uses leather armour in movies they do not appear to have much faith in it offering any protection as countless Romans appear to be able to commit suicide while wearing it, in films like 'Julius Caesar', or are stabbed by their enemies as in this case
[attachment=7386]Centuian-GuardWithSword1.jpg[/attachment]
.
By the way thanks for the kind words about my books on another website!
Best wishes.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Ave, everyone,
I have to agree with Graham as, I having done my service is the U.S. Navy, I had to be able to swim, jump into the water from approximately 60 ' up,(simulating jumping from the side of an aircraft carrier), and stay afloat for 10 minutes fully dressed. It just might be that the few minutes leather armorkeeps one afloat is just enough to grab on to a piece of debris inn the water.
Something we all need to keep in mind with regards Hollywood, They NEVER use boiled leather (see my note above vis a vis "Gladiator". Speaking of crazy Hollywood armor, check out the armor Bruckheimer put "King" Arthur in.......LOL.
Richard, once I get the money to have Matt Luke make me a Steel musculata, I might have aleather copy made. In the mean time, I if I can get a decent deal on a premade one, I'll get it.
Salve,
Vitruvius.............aka Larry Mager
I'm still just waiting for anyone, anywhere to provide the slightest bit of evidence for a leather musculata or leather armor other than "the statues of the emperors are 'bending' at the waist." Before I educated myself (still not done yet!) with the help of RAT and a wealth of other materials recommended on these boards, I believed it would be perfectly natural to never find such an item made of leather - it would obviously decompose after such a long period in the ground. However, now I know that there are many finds of leather items at Roman military excavations, yet none of those finds have been standalone pieces of armor. I personally saw (in a documentary that is) an excavator at Vindolanda pull an almost perfectly preserved leather Roman boot out of the ground. Even neglecting the fact that we have absolutely no evidence at all for Romans using leather (boiled or not) in this fashion, we can even trace the genesis of such pro-leather armor arguments back to misinterpretations and shoddy guesswork done by scholars in the Victorian era.
I just don't understand the argument for Roman leather armor. I don't even think there is one (beyond its use as a backing for scale etc.).
I seem to recall that soldiers were taught to swim as part of their training. This is possibly mentioned in the collected works of R.W. Davies.
Vegetius tells us in his first book that soldiers should learn to swim (1.10 ad usum natandi execendos tirones). If a man in armour fell overboard, well, I suppose he would be very motivated to get out of it in a hurry. No different than a pikeman finding an enemy at close quarters, or a legionary being ordered to attack a Macedonian phalanx deployed in a breach, or an archer being jumped by men with javelins. Soldiering was risky.
We have some evidence from the early middle ages that a strong man could keep above armour in a light coat of mail, and I think that someone recently had himself videoed trying it in white harness.
Nullis in verba
I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
hock: :lol:
