05-31-2013, 10:22 PM
Tim,
Can't argue the first point about Polybius, it all goes back to the credence you give him as a source. Everyone has a back story, do you trust his? Could he have been duped? Maybe. Or maybe after seeing all the problems in Greece caused by the Macedonian barbarians, he liked the Romans. (It is my understanding that the Achaean League, that his people were a part of, were not on great terms with the Macedonians, who they didn't consider proper Greeks anyway. I could be wrong)
...assuming the Romans are arrayed in an open formation, how would they respond to a direct frontal charge from a phalanx? Would it not be the most natural thing for the soldiers to close ranks and present a wall to the enemy and then counter charge?
I can argue that the only way you could get through the literal wall of spears would be as an individual. As a unit of men shield to shield, you can't do anything unless everyone does it. As an individual, you have the freedom of independent movement.
Should you face a Macedonian phalanx as a Roman, fighing as an individual in loose formation, I believe your options are limited to:
- Aim your pilum for a front ranker right in front of you and hope you pierce him or his shield enough so his movement shifts the pikes immediately around him, causing a small enough gap to appear that you can "shoulder" your way past the sarrisa tips to actually reach their front
- Block with your shield as best you can and then drop it, scramble on your hands and knees with sword in hand under the pikes and try to reach the formation
- Fall back while showering Phalanx with every pila and rock you can pick up, hoping for their strict formation to faulter, or for the terrain to worsen, allowing you to exploit a gap
- Fall on a spear point and hope the weight of your body disrupts the holder of it
- Use your sword to attempt to hack off the spear tips
- Break and run back to your camp and pray you aren't decimated after the battle
A Roman fighting shield to shield with his mates is limited to this:
- Move forward with your rank, shield braced against your left elbow and knee, half stepping, and trying to push back against the spear point to your direct front, even though there are more behind it.
- Half step back
- Throw pila and rocks
- Run away
If kept in loose formation, couldn't the spears of the phalanx could exploit the gaps in the roman line.
The only spears of the phalanx that will directly affect the front line Roman are those held by the men in the front line of the phalanx. Unless the Roman tries to maneuver past the first spear tip, he won't encounter the second, third or fourth. To those to the sides, they will be focused on other Romans. Also, to assist in his defense, the Roman's shield is curved to offer some protection to his flanks.
if the romans are fighting in open order, how do they prevent the enemy from exploiting the 3 foot gaps between the men when they are engaged. How does a legionary in the front line fight-off an enemy directly in front while being surrounded on the left and right as well?
If you are referring to the integrity of the whole line, in order for an enemy to properly exploit the intervals between Roman infantry that Polybius accounts for, the enemy must also break ranks as well. This is the trick. One side (the phalanx) NEEDS complete cohesion to function, while the Romans don't. They just need to stay with the standards. To exploit the Roman gap, the enemy creates their own gap. Think of jigsaw pieces put together.
This part applies to multiple types of adversaries a Roman could face, not just the Macedonians in their styled phalanx:
If the Roman in the front is fighting the man directly to his front, then yes, the Roman would also have to worry about his sides being exposed. However, the enemy would as well. If said enemy focuses solely on the Roman to their oblique, who is sparring with the man directly to their sides, they won't be focused on the Roman directly to their front, standing in the second rank of the Roman line, in the gap, who can still use his heavy pilum and can attack forward into the gap if necessary.
Having the freedom of movement that Polybius writes of allows for foot work, a Roman has the option to dart forward, attack, side step, back step, etc. The man who can maneuver can dodge or parry blows easier than one forced to stay in rigid position and simply "take" the blow and hope their shield isn't shattered or pierced. The movement also allows the Roman to set up an opponent, similar to boxing. That is unless the Roman indirectly leaves himself open, in which case said Roman becomes a dead Roman. Or at least wounded. Then someone from the second rank steps forward, pulls his mate back if he can, and carries on the fight.
I might not be making myself clear in this. In my head I can see it happening but I might not be expressing it well enough in writing. I will probably have to edit this a bit.
Macedonian Phalanx:
To function properly, the Macedonian style phalanx needs to stay in perfect rank/file or spears become useless and the formation dissolves. If their cohesion and order is maintained, the front is virtually impenetrable, while side and rear are always in danger. Unless terrain or excessive amounts of casualties disrupt the spear coverage in the front, in which case gaps will appear that will allow a loosely organized force to exploit them, such as the Romans or others. The Macedonian system requires long training and professional soldiers to carry it out and is expensive.
Roman or Socii Maniple:
The Romans are sword fighters, using shields defensively and offensively, they need room to maneuver and don't need total cohesion, just space to operate. If they were to fight as a phalanx and simply used their swords for overhanded blows there would be no reason to arm them with swords in the first place as spears are cheaper and easier to make. Once crowded, swords become less useful, as the range and type of blows they can deliver, as is the scutum, is divided exponentially by how close the ranks are bunched. The outside limit of space in which the Romans fought is that which the centurion and tribunes no longer have control of the men, who receive orders over the din of battle by signalling devices such as trumpets, horns, turning/dipping standards, etc. Also, if men break to quickly to chase an enemy, the whole integrity of the maniple comes apart.
The Roman system does not require all that much unit training but lots of individual training in the form of javelin throwing and swordsmanship, which was no doubt were part of the upbringing of a rural Roman boy, similar today to how farmers teach sons how to shoot rifles when not pushing a plow. Until 123 BC, the Romans were required to provide their own equipment and were a conscript force, a cheap and easy method of warfare that some how worked to win every single war the Romans faced.
Gods forbid your army is destroyed, then simply raise another and go fight some more. With a professional organization made up of men who take months to years to turn into an effective unit (like the Macedonian Silver Shields), the loss of a unit would devastate the war effort.
Can't argue the first point about Polybius, it all goes back to the credence you give him as a source. Everyone has a back story, do you trust his? Could he have been duped? Maybe. Or maybe after seeing all the problems in Greece caused by the Macedonian barbarians, he liked the Romans. (It is my understanding that the Achaean League, that his people were a part of, were not on great terms with the Macedonians, who they didn't consider proper Greeks anyway. I could be wrong)
...assuming the Romans are arrayed in an open formation, how would they respond to a direct frontal charge from a phalanx? Would it not be the most natural thing for the soldiers to close ranks and present a wall to the enemy and then counter charge?
I can argue that the only way you could get through the literal wall of spears would be as an individual. As a unit of men shield to shield, you can't do anything unless everyone does it. As an individual, you have the freedom of independent movement.
Should you face a Macedonian phalanx as a Roman, fighing as an individual in loose formation, I believe your options are limited to:
- Aim your pilum for a front ranker right in front of you and hope you pierce him or his shield enough so his movement shifts the pikes immediately around him, causing a small enough gap to appear that you can "shoulder" your way past the sarrisa tips to actually reach their front
- Block with your shield as best you can and then drop it, scramble on your hands and knees with sword in hand under the pikes and try to reach the formation
- Fall back while showering Phalanx with every pila and rock you can pick up, hoping for their strict formation to faulter, or for the terrain to worsen, allowing you to exploit a gap
- Fall on a spear point and hope the weight of your body disrupts the holder of it
- Use your sword to attempt to hack off the spear tips
- Break and run back to your camp and pray you aren't decimated after the battle
A Roman fighting shield to shield with his mates is limited to this:
- Move forward with your rank, shield braced against your left elbow and knee, half stepping, and trying to push back against the spear point to your direct front, even though there are more behind it.
- Half step back
- Throw pila and rocks
- Run away
If kept in loose formation, couldn't the spears of the phalanx could exploit the gaps in the roman line.
The only spears of the phalanx that will directly affect the front line Roman are those held by the men in the front line of the phalanx. Unless the Roman tries to maneuver past the first spear tip, he won't encounter the second, third or fourth. To those to the sides, they will be focused on other Romans. Also, to assist in his defense, the Roman's shield is curved to offer some protection to his flanks.
if the romans are fighting in open order, how do they prevent the enemy from exploiting the 3 foot gaps between the men when they are engaged. How does a legionary in the front line fight-off an enemy directly in front while being surrounded on the left and right as well?
If you are referring to the integrity of the whole line, in order for an enemy to properly exploit the intervals between Roman infantry that Polybius accounts for, the enemy must also break ranks as well. This is the trick. One side (the phalanx) NEEDS complete cohesion to function, while the Romans don't. They just need to stay with the standards. To exploit the Roman gap, the enemy creates their own gap. Think of jigsaw pieces put together.
This part applies to multiple types of adversaries a Roman could face, not just the Macedonians in their styled phalanx:
If the Roman in the front is fighting the man directly to his front, then yes, the Roman would also have to worry about his sides being exposed. However, the enemy would as well. If said enemy focuses solely on the Roman to their oblique, who is sparring with the man directly to their sides, they won't be focused on the Roman directly to their front, standing in the second rank of the Roman line, in the gap, who can still use his heavy pilum and can attack forward into the gap if necessary.
Having the freedom of movement that Polybius writes of allows for foot work, a Roman has the option to dart forward, attack, side step, back step, etc. The man who can maneuver can dodge or parry blows easier than one forced to stay in rigid position and simply "take" the blow and hope their shield isn't shattered or pierced. The movement also allows the Roman to set up an opponent, similar to boxing. That is unless the Roman indirectly leaves himself open, in which case said Roman becomes a dead Roman. Or at least wounded. Then someone from the second rank steps forward, pulls his mate back if he can, and carries on the fight.
I might not be making myself clear in this. In my head I can see it happening but I might not be expressing it well enough in writing. I will probably have to edit this a bit.
Macedonian Phalanx:
To function properly, the Macedonian style phalanx needs to stay in perfect rank/file or spears become useless and the formation dissolves. If their cohesion and order is maintained, the front is virtually impenetrable, while side and rear are always in danger. Unless terrain or excessive amounts of casualties disrupt the spear coverage in the front, in which case gaps will appear that will allow a loosely organized force to exploit them, such as the Romans or others. The Macedonian system requires long training and professional soldiers to carry it out and is expensive.
Roman or Socii Maniple:
The Romans are sword fighters, using shields defensively and offensively, they need room to maneuver and don't need total cohesion, just space to operate. If they were to fight as a phalanx and simply used their swords for overhanded blows there would be no reason to arm them with swords in the first place as spears are cheaper and easier to make. Once crowded, swords become less useful, as the range and type of blows they can deliver, as is the scutum, is divided exponentially by how close the ranks are bunched. The outside limit of space in which the Romans fought is that which the centurion and tribunes no longer have control of the men, who receive orders over the din of battle by signalling devices such as trumpets, horns, turning/dipping standards, etc. Also, if men break to quickly to chase an enemy, the whole integrity of the maniple comes apart.
The Roman system does not require all that much unit training but lots of individual training in the form of javelin throwing and swordsmanship, which was no doubt were part of the upbringing of a rural Roman boy, similar today to how farmers teach sons how to shoot rifles when not pushing a plow. Until 123 BC, the Romans were required to provide their own equipment and were a conscript force, a cheap and easy method of warfare that some how worked to win every single war the Romans faced.
Gods forbid your army is destroyed, then simply raise another and go fight some more. With a professional organization made up of men who take months to years to turn into an effective unit (like the Macedonian Silver Shields), the loss of a unit would devastate the war effort.
