Mainz vrs. Pompeii Scabbards Embossed? Repoussed?

[Pointer]

Ok... here we go... another "Novice" question... Maybe I am right and maybe I am wrong...
Most of my research has been through the internet when it comes to pictures. Are there more archeological "Finds" of "Decorative" Mainz Scabbards then there are "Decorative" Pompeii Scabbards?

I know you guys have more reference materials then I do... so I am asking the experts.

I am looking for some reference materials to Pompeii Scabbards. I have seen a few. Most of what I have found has been more "etched" or cut outs... tinned or silvered. But I am not finding many that had repousse or raised designs.

Was that a cultural thing? Or because of the width of the scabbards? If I am correct, the Pompeii came into being as the Mainz was being phased out? THat is why I am asking if it was a cultural thing.

I would appreciate any pictures or links you have of decorative Pompeii Scabbards or plates.
ALso... is there a good pictorial book of 1st Century ROman Swords?

Thanks,
Patrick

[brennivs - tony drake]

Hi Patrick Hmmm they are a lot of plates for both out there. The only concrete way to see what plates fit which sword is when both are found together. The cut out type with Mars and various other Gods on them, can be put with Pompeii swords. Now they are other lockets that have a patterns and cut outs on them, The problem is as sizes are missing you cannot roughly work out the sword pattern it could have been made for. So these possible could be made for either. The Repousse plates, they are only 2 lockets I know that are done this way, the Thracian locket which has horses and Griffens on, this by subject matter has been thought to have been used for a Cavalry Spatha the other is in a private collection and does not have a generic name but is similer construction as the Thracian locket. I started a thread on this point as I wanted to see if they are anymore Repousse lockets out there. As yet no replys ad: I am looking into the various fittings on swords to see if any links can be made, but a lot more searching too be done before I can make any comment on it :wink: The way the sword time line works is Mainz then Fvllvm along side, Which in my mind are reground Mainz blades that have been damaged and put back into service. The Pompeii is next and for at least the 1st AD all three were used. All three are in Brittania after 43AD, when the Mainz/Fvllvm went out of service is unsure, but by the amount of open frame Pugio scabbards 2ND-3RD AD the repousse and openwork plates used as pictures to fill the frame, makes me think why are these fittings still hanging around to be used :? As to the best book the Miks book on swords seams to be a excellent guide but I have not seen a copy yet :x other than that there is a lot of papers out there that are based on particular sword finds. I hope hope this is of use as I better at talking than writing on this :lol: :lol:
Regards Brennivs

[Pointer]

So... are there any Pompeii Scabbards that have Repousse... stampings... or embossings?

[brennivs - tony drake]

Patrick the answer is no the two lockets mentioned were found without blades. To me when the pompeii was issued, the soldiers wanting to bling there new swords may have went along with Repousse fittings but I dont think they would have been a full plate. I would say this did not last long and the traditional lockets became the norm. The thing is where the Idea to do the engraved/cutout locket comes from? I can see why they became popular as they do take less time to make. A repoussed full length plate took me 4 days to do, but I could do a pompeii locket, chape, frame, scabbard everthing in 2 days. Now there is one plate that could have been used, it has the same layout as a traditional pompeii locket see below,

There is another small piece of evidence for repoussed pompeii fittings a chape from Vindonissa as you can see was made for a pompeii.

This is one of the repoussed lockets that conforms to a pompeii locket,

As you can see any type of picture could be used to fill the frame, so they are plates that have been found singular, but what I think has happened they have been cut up to be used in Pugio frames or to decorate something else. Ihope you can see what I am getting at as they are other type fittings ie Long Windsor type. As I said still a lot more research to be done :grin:
Regards Brennivs

[Pointer]

SO it is possible that the Pompeii's had parts of them that were repoussed and or embossed? But not likely the entire scabbard... just small parts?
Just trying to understand and clarify.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Yes that is just about it, the locket and the chape, unless Archeology comes up with anything more. Or lying in some Museum store room :whistle: Just many more years of research and waiting
Regards Brennivs

[Titus Marius Secundus]

Please go to this page http://www.romanarmy.net/scabbard.shtml Hopefully it can help!