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Gladiator Tournament
#1
I first thought about this concept about a year ago but i've been sitting on it ever since. As you are likely aware some of the medieval groups are having competative tournaments. With the large amount of gladiator groups now in existance it would be fantastic to have a competative event.
I'm not talking full contact and it would require a good deal of sportsmanship and refereeing. Just imagine the spectacle at one of the large gatherings such as Chester.
Please take this suggestion in the manner it has been raised with and answer with constructive critism. ;-)
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#2
How would you determine the victor? With a point system, you take all the fun out of gladiator combat.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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#3
If the lanista/referee watched, he could rule things like any marital arts contest that doesn't work like MMA. Non-full contact Karate has rules, Gladitoria could have rules. Common sense would show "this is a wound that doesn't matter", "this is a wound that would incapacitate", "this is a contact that makes no difference", "this is a mortal wound". If done like the real thing, there would be very few of the 4th sort, quite a few of the 1st, and just enough of the 2nd and 3rd to make things exciting and realistic. It would not have to be full force, nor go beyond a moderate level of danger to the participants.

Beyond that, the lanista could stop the match at any time to make adjustments, or whatever seemed right at the time.

Some common types of rules would have to be drafted and adopted.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#4
Victory would be attributed to the public's favorite. Like in ancient times Big Grin !
[Image: inaciem-bandeau.png]
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#5
Though I realy would love to see this happening, the main challenge would not be the scoring system but the safety of the combatans.
Medieval fighters have the luxury of full body armor and even they do prohibit stabbing in many rulesets.
We on the other hand are supposed to attack by stabbing and do not wear body armor to safeguard us.
Even if full contact is prohibited, you can not control the forward impulse of y
our opponent, so a straight attack to the body or neck would have to be prohibited as well.
Another matter is the problem that in a tournament setup you could have Armaturae paired that would have not have met historically.
Lastly the gear of most Gladiator groups varies a lot in quality and combat readiness.
That said I would consider the SCA honor system as the best way to determine the winner, as long as the fighters are reasonably relaxed and not to ambitious.
A Summa Rudis might have to intervene if one of the fighters ignores clear hits though.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#6
Without some kind of common rule, style, weapon regulations, and codes of conduct, there could not be an effective inter-group "league" of gladiators. All would have to train the same way, have the same level of commitment, and the same scoring/victory system. Without those things, it would become less entertaining for the crowds, and more dangerous for those who had trained under different systems.

It's a great idea, and would generate considerable interest and entertainment for the public spectators and reenactor alike. How do do it with relatively little blood shed is the big stopper. We had a needledfelt gladiator group for a while, and the public didn't mind that the weapons were harmless. We had a couple of people injured by falling badly, by getting a mouthful of shield edge, and bad deflections of spear thrusts, etc. With harder tipped mock weapons, the injury predictions would necessarily go up and up. The closer the combatants get to the "real thing", the more likely the "real eventuality" would become reality.

Just an old man's musings, though. Retired retarius.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#7
any marital arts contest that doesn't work like MMA. Big Grin

Is this why you are a retired ret?
Lost your trident in the marital arts comp? :razz:

I think that this competition is already happening and while not formalised in any way it is simply individuals/ groups helping each other out at shows. From the vids I have seen european and american gladiators fight on a wide spectrum of intensity and it is natural as we all have different standards of acceptable risk. Of course if you wished to elect for a standard gladiator for comp you could make the heavy that's clad in the "pre great helm" helmet.
Imagine a dozen or so of them whupping it out. :woot:
regards
Richard
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#8
I fully support this idea!! I would fly to Europe to participate in it!

Safety and equipment standards are going to be a BIG issue. It is easy for some classes of gladiators to protect themselves and still appear to be historically accurate. For example a kidney belt would be needed and a large leather belt would be accepted by most. A cup is easily hidden. Unfortunately the Retiarii has no head protection what so ever. I would not let one of my gladiators not even myself go into a tourney with no head protection.

Equipment! To remain "historically accurate" live steal, even blunted steal, couldn't be used. It is too much of a liability. Do you use needlefelt or wood? Needlefelt will not do great damage to a person but the core if it breaks could do great damage. Wood has the same issue, if it breaks it will become sharp and do great harm. You could use a hard wood like oak or even rattan. When rattan breaks it just shreds up and doesn't become hazardous. The equipment of the fighters would also be an issue. Will the equipment actually take a hit and protect the fighter?

I would look into the SCA and there fighter regulations on safety and armor standards. Some SCA groups even do Roman but to fight they have to dress in armor not period for Roman to protect the fighter.

The point system I think would be easy to overcome. In our Ludus if a fighter takes a hit that would kill a man, yes we use the honor system, we go down. When a fighter receives three non fatal hits he goes down. The only issue I see is declaring a winner. With some fighters fighting multiple styles and others fighting only one class with no losses.

With enough thought, hard work, determination this can happen! I hope this helps!!
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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#9
Quote:Is this why you are a retired ret?
Funny!
No, our group dissolved, and now I'm a little older, and have a respiratory difficulty that has decreased my stamina too far for that sort of competition--along with other health issues. It's a fond memory, though.

Like the first time I used the tip of the trident to grab the blade of my opponent's gladius and rotate it, flipping his sword away, then giving him 3 new navels. And the square back edge of the trident is great for feinting then grabbing the edge of a shield, pulling it out of the way and sticking ribcages--in about two blinks of an eye. Cool weapon, but make sure the fork is securely mounted on the handle!
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#10
Hey guys,

I would like to add to some of the points already made.
Generally I think it is a great idea to get a lot of gladiators together to work together. I suggested a meeting, called Gladiator Symposium. You will find it on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gladiator-Symposium
and in the following thread:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/12-anci...osium.html

However the thread is not very up to date. So for info, please check the facebook site.


As much as I like the idea of a gathering, as much do I oppose the idea of a tournament. I have multiple reasons for that:

1. As far as we know, the games never had a tournament character. It was more like a modern-day boxing event, where you have multiple non linked fights.

2. The training standards and equipment of the groups simply vary to much to send them into fights without knowing each other.

3. The existence of different types makes it very very difficult to compare them. I personally have know idea how a scoring system that compares a retiarius and a provocator should look like. If for example you would go by hits delivered and/or blocked, the retiarius would be in great disadvantage because of his rather evasive style.

4. Other than MMA and boxing that also fight with little protection, the do not use weapons. Therefore knowing your fighting and training partners is essential. You have to build mutual trust and this clearly takes a while.

5. I believe a Symposium that allows everybody to train together for a week and then maybe fight a new found friend in the arena with spectators is way more fruitful to improving your skills, than simply bashing at each other at a tournament.


Since so many of you seem to like the idea of meeting, I would very much like to invite you to help me organise a Gladiator Symposium in 2014.
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#11
That's the right idea. I think having a standardized set of rules for the different types of gladiators (the Romans did) would work the best. Retarius never fought with a Hoplomachus. There were sets that were paired based on the style of fighting they were suited for, with their differing strengths and weaknesses. No need to reinvent that, just set it up the way they did, and things should work out ok. Essentially, the winner is the one that is undefeated.

Something simple like 1 mortal wound and you're out.
2 serious wounds and you ask for mercy, and live or die at the behest of the editor and/or the crowd.
3 minor wounds equal a serious wound.
And so forth. You could even mark the wound site with some kind of red paint or dye.

What would have to be determined is what constitutes each sort of wound.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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