Accountability

[Pointer]

In being a part of Roman Army Talk for the last year, let me start off by saying how much I appreciate this forum and all that I have gained from the resources and the people who have openly shared their experiences, knowledge, concerns and answers to many, many questions I have posted and responded to. There is so much more I could say. I really appreciate all of you!

One of the reasons I have come to RAT is for the construction of 3 Roman Military "Impressions" I am putting together. The resources here are phenomenal and so are the people! Sure we will not always agree on everything... sure there are always new archeological finds and new things coming to light on all levels of discovering the History of the Roman Empire.

We have people here from all walks of life rich and poor, educated and uneducated from all different parts of the world and nationalities... Archeologists, Illustrators, Writers, Historians, Museums, Reenactors, Modelers, Armorers, etc. I am not a part of a group and there are none in my area to gain such a vast amount of information and direction. So, I really depend on each of your areas of expertise on any level you are at.

One of the resources I come here for is the Marketplace. In fact, I will often come here more then once a day just to check and see what has become available. I have purchased and sold items with the aid of the Marketplace. I have purchased items from both private individuals and suppliers or manufacturers. Of course there is the age old saying of "Buyer Beware," and I will say, [b]I have yet to purchase something here from a "Private Individual" that isn't exactly as it has been described or pictured.[/b] I have yet to receive anything from a "Private individual" that arrived damaged or a different size that was posted.

I am sad to say that, that has not been the case with some "manufacturers or suppliers." I know the rules here are that we are not supposed to "Bash" anyone or "Badger" them or talk about a purchase made because of their listing here. However, I am a bit distressed about this policy, not as it is written, but I think that there should be some type of accountability that business transactions between buyers and suppliers/manufacturers who are selling as a business.

If we as "Members" are holding one another accountable in our posts... Which is good... Shouldn't we as "Members" hold accountable suppliers/manufacturers for bad business practices? If a business is allowed to post in the Marketplace (With no type of Better Business Bureau) then how can we help other members avoid these businesses that are apparently scamming our members? We deal with "Spammers" how about the "Scammers?"

I have lost money, time, and finally patience only with certain suppliers/manufacturers. The sad thing is I have seen others that have posted about the same suppliers/manufacturers and been rebuked or had to remove their posts because they shared a bad experience.

Can we not come to some sort of agreement to either hold accountable a supplier/manufacturer by sharing their track record? I have come to trust RAT on every other level accept this one. I view "Private sales" as a classified ad. But when I purchase something from a manufacturer/supplier who has posted here there should be some sort of accountability for them to protect the "Members" who have this same "Trust" in RAT.

Can we not come to some sort of agreement for return policies? I have seen the abuse here of items that are shipped from suppliers that are Smaller sizes then posted. Isn't it ironic that you never see a post that has said "They sent me a bigger size then posted?" I have been told that I have to keep the original shipment... and pay to have another one in the 'Correct" size. Doesn't is seem odd to any of us that this seems all too often to be the case? Shouldn't a business take back their so called "mistake..." and ship the right one? Its that way for every other "Business" i have dealt with in the world. But not with manufacturers of "Roman" products. At least not here. (I know this is not Ebay) However, we should be able to Trust any Manufacturer/supplier who is allowed to have "Free Advertising" here at the expense of the Members.

It would have saved me an entire years worth of frustration, Stress, time, patience and of course money with one manufacturer/supplier and over 6 months with another. But transactions have apparently gone defunct at my expense. I honestly don't want to see this happen to any of our other Members here who have come here with the trust and sincerity that I have had.

I will not post who they are or were. (It is currently against the rules). But what about protecting the interest of other members and the credibility of those who are practicing good businesses? TO me, if a Business is Posting or Advertising on RAT... then isn't that really an "Endorsement" from RAT that they are practicing "Good" business practices?

I expect to take critique for what I am posting... and that is okay... I have a thick skin when it comes to that. But I think it is High Time... to have some type of Accountability in order to list here if you are a manufacturer/supplier.

Does anyone else agree? I am just tired of seeing good honest people being taken advantage of by those who are abusing good business standards and using RAT as one of their main platforms. Where else are you going to advertise Roman stuff among Roman enthusiasts?

Thank you.
Patrick

[Flavivs Aetivs]

This was discussed at length regarding a certain buisness. The final conclusion the mods came to was that if the Buisness is not represented on RAT, it cannot be discussed. Furthermore, if you have complaints etc. to file against a buisness, then RAT is not the place to do it.

[Epictetus]

TO me, if a Business is Posting or Advertising on RAT... then isn't that really an "Endorsement" from RAT that they are practicing "Good" business practices?

My opinion: no. RAT is simply a forum. It is not endorsing anyone, whether business or individual. These listings on RAT are instead, like you mentioned earlier, similar to a classified advertisement. We can't hold RAT responsible for buyers and sellers and all these transactions. We should be happy such a neutral forum and marketplace as RAT is available, and not try to turn it into something it isn't.

That said: I do agree with you that criticism should be allowed. The last time this came up I argued very strongly for allowing criticism. Criticism - even unfair criticism - can be very useful sometimes.

[Pointer]

I appreciate your post Epictetus...

Just for clarification, "holding RAT responsible for buyers and sellers transactions" is not what I am concerned about. In fact I agree with you totally.

I just believe that if a manufacturer/supplier is abusing RAT's Members... then they should be made known to protect other members.

I know this is a hair splitting subject. But as a member I don't want what has happened to me to happen to someone else.

Note: I have not, and will not at this time reveal who I am talking about and stay within the rules of this forum. So in advance, if you want to private message me and ask, I still will not reveal it at this time. I think it is only fair as a member to stay within the parameters of the rules and I do not think I am breaking any in this thread. It I am, I will humbly request it's removal.

I personally am not planning on departing from RAT nor am I trying to get others to depart either. I just don't want to see anyone else lose time, patience, and money in the same fashion I have and that I know others have as well.

Patrick

[Robert Vermaat]

To clarify this once more, criticism is allowed here (of course), but where vendors are concerned we look differently. RAT is indeed a forum and not a place where we discuss customer services. Should anyone have a problem with someone who sold them something, this MUST be attempted to have been solved first with the other party by any means before we even allow such criticism here. And even then, first ask a moderator.

First and foremost, the rule is 'caveat emptor'. I know it's very tempting to ask the forum to help, or warn others here, but we simply don't want to risk coming between two arguing parties if that can be helped.

Patrick, if you really wish to solve anything, best send me your story by pm. This forum is not publicly going to hold anyone accountable, but maybe we can help.

[Charlie]

Patrick, I think your post is very fair and I for one agree that other members need to be warned about certain merchants and their unethical ways of doing business.
There are many good reputable suppliers and skilled craftsman out there, and my advice is always to stick with these, sure it will cost more......but as someone once said...you get what you pay for.
I personally have done business with quite a few of these reputable craftsman, and I never once have had an issue.
I do hope Patrick that you get your issues resolved asap with the Co. you are referring to.

[Pointer]

Thank You Marcellus... I am glad someone understands my point of view. And at least there is someone out there now that I know that makes a really good looking Pugio ;-)

Robert... I like the quote at the bottom of your post... "THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST"
I am not looking for "Justice" in my case. I am looking to prevent what happened to me from happening to others.

Not to tear a company down or criticize them... more of a track record thing.

Such as: (Post)
I was looking at the Marketplace today and saw a Mainz Gladius Z104.5 made by Farmer Brown Corporation. It says that the over all length is 27" and that The guard, and pommel are crafted from walnut and the grip is made of camel bone. THe Scabbard is veg tanned leather with brass fittings. Has anyone ever dealt with them here?

(Reply) Mr. Bean. I have dealt with that company on numerous occasions and they have yet to live up to what they posted. I also purchased the Gladius you are talking about, the Mainz Gladius Z104.5 It took months to receive what they said was "in Stock". When I finally received it, it was not the one they posted. THe over all length was 24". The Scabbard was not the one pictured. The grip was cracked right down the center and the Pommel and Hilt were made of ash with a dark walnut stan. When I contacted Farmer Brown Co. about it, they told me to keep it and sell it then return the money to them and they would make a new one. After more frustration about this whole ordeal, I would simply say... Avoid them at all costs! DOn't waste your time or money.

(Reply) Ivan Doverspike I wouldn't buy another item from them! I purchased a 6mm Hamata from them they claimed would fit a 47" Chest. Well, I wear a tunic and a subarmalis and my over all chest size while wearing those items is only 44" that should have been at least 3" of play if I ever needed to wear an under tunic in colder weather. But there is no way this Hamata would even fit over a 44" chest. I contacted them and they told me to keep it and they would make another one for me and to send them money. I have waited 6 months and have yet to receive it. I will never do business with them again!

(Reply) Sven Rowkowski I totally agree with Mr. Bean and Ivan! It has been over a year for me and I still have no Idea when they are going to ship what I ordered. Every time I contact them it takes more then a week for them to return my messages and then they only answer one of my questions and tell me that I need to understand that they have been busy. Well where am I on their list?

(reply) Brad Smithburger It appears we have all been scammed. I too received my Lorica Segmentata. It was a lot smaller then was stated. 110mm smaller around to be exact. THey told me the same thing! They wouldn't take it back and replace it... they told me to find a buyer for it. Why should the burden be put on me? ANy other company would take it back and replace it immediately at their cost not mine! I got the same run around with emails and messages. Too busy, Our Phone was not working... we were on holiday... or I didn't hear from them for a month with still no results. THis has been frustrating when I put my hard earned money out there and they do nothing for me once they got my money for the first one. I wasn't able to participate in the festival this year. I am at wits end. Don't buy anything from Farmer Brown's Co. unless you are willing to "Not get what you pay for!!!"

So Robert... would any of these replies be acceptable on RAT? Why does it have to be Buyer Beware... if the Company is practicing bad ethics? I think that if they post on RAT... then RAT Members should be allowed to share their experiences with the companies that sell here. Keep them reputable... honest and ethical in their practices. If "Buyer Beware" is the policy... then why not equalize it with "Seller Beware" also?

It would keep them honest and upright and we would be protecting the interests, time, and finances of other members.
"THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST" Well then... the playing field for Buyers and sellers should be leveled. WHy should the seller always have the leverage of the Higher ground and be protected?
Doesn't this make any sense?
Patrick

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Patrick you already know my feeling on this. We have had similar issues with the same dealer. It would be helpful if we could share our experiences with others. Without RAT some of these manufacturers would have no business, so I think it would only be right to talk to other potential customers of our experiences.

[Robert]

With a change to the marketplace feature, I believe RAT has made much progress in no longer "promoting" vendors and manufacturers/vendors.

There is a difference at being critical about a product offered for sale (I had a recent run-in with [vendor name*] on claimed authenticity of some Indian made spatha) and being critical about the vendor or manufacturer way of running his business. It seems the former is still allowed if a vendor actively advertises a product on RAT or posts it in the Product Development section, inviting comment. We have had some heated discussion of the second kind about an indian manufacturer*. I believe that kind would now be banned (although I wish that wasn't so!).

Perhaps it is possible to make a list of known and willing manufacturors/vendors and have a kind of "satisfaction poll" that can be filled out, like those for vendors on some marketplace sites. People can then leave a vote (thumbs up, thumbs down) and a short comment. That would be helpfull in two ways, making known who sells and produces what and giving an indication of service levels and/or reliability.

*EDIT BY MOD: since we are discussing principles here, and not specific cases in an effort to get a better, more equitable way to deal with this issue, it will be unproductive to include specific vendor names at this time. Thank you for your understanding.

* EDIT BY ME: If one is left out, so should be the other. Still, both examples stand


You are correct, thanks for fixing that, Robert.

[M. Demetrius]

Here are the rules concerning the Marketplace and Complaints as presently written. If it's been a while since you read the Rules of RAT, some have been updated and edited, so it might be a good idea to check in and read them, so as to keep current.

"The Marketplace
The RAT Marketplace allows RAT members to buy / sell / exchange and review items in their personal possession. Commercial enterprises with no other interest than sales and marketing will not be allowed to advertise their wares anywhere on RAT or actively seek product or marketing information anywhere on RAT, likewise members are prohibited from posting on behalf of a commercial enterprise so restricted, whether formally or informally. Complaints or disagreements with Vendors or Suppliers must be handled off-forum, as this is not a customer service forum. Please handle this by Private Message. If an issue must be dealt with publicly, it must be after all other means are exhausted and a Moderator approves the message.

How to handle complaints
If you have a complaint about any member's post or behavior or a moderator's or admin's decision, please try to work it out with them first in a PM. You'll find that most RAT members are very reasonable and willing to listen. If you cannot work things out, contact a moderator (again, in PM) and see if they can mediate. If your problem concerns a moderator, contact either Matt Lukes or Jasper Oorthuys.
If you manage to get a problem with both of the admins, you're probably out of luck."

[Pointer]

Thank you David for the updated Rules. I did not realize that they had been updated as such. My mistake. Can you tell me when they were updated?

The Marketplace Rule left me both refreshed and confused. (Sorry, I may ate too many paint chips as a child.)

The rules: "Commercial enterprises with no other interest than sales and marketing will not be allowed to advertise their wares anywhere on RAT or actively seek product or marketing information anywhere on RAT, likewise members are prohibited from posting on behalf of a commercial enterprise so restricted, whether formally or informally. "

How does this apply to the "Product News" and "Product Development" sections?

I m not trying to stir the pot on this question I am just trying to understand in an open forum so others can understand as well.

Patrick

[M. Demetrius]

I can't really interpret that.

I'll bring it up with the staff and see what the Elders say.
Hold that thought...

[Robert Vermaat]

This was added at the time to prevent advertising-only posts in the Martketplace. This way, we could remove those, and keep the forum for members who were willing to discuss their products, including the development. That was years ago, and at the time it was successful, so we don't enforce this as rigidly as we did it at the time.

Patrick, I wrote earlier that criticism towards sellers is allowed, only we look more closely at it, and demand more restrictions of the posters, that's all. Past experiences have made us more cautious, and your examples are indeed from the time before that. Times changed, so did the rules, but that does not mean you have to remain silent about your experiences. It's just so we want to make certain that warnings are justified and complaints correct. Likewise, we don't allow sellers to wrongfully accuse customers either!

I hope you see that I really understand your argument, I hope you see our points too.

[Pointer]

Thank You Robert V.

I want you all to know that I really appreciate all that RAT is! Even you Moderators who painstakingly not only have to read so many posts and then have to make a judgement on them... but the time you spend answering questions like mine, show that you care about all of the members here! I appreciate that... and i appreciate each of you! It has to be difficult... so HANG IN THERE!

I too, care about this website/forum. It has taught and challenged me a lot. This issue that I brought up, I know has been a scab on an open wound... so I am sorry if I have caused the Moderators any grief to revisit this issue.

I am glad that I have a better understanding now about the Rules of the Marketplace and I hope that it has also enlightened others as well.

[b]To all of RAT:[/b] I want to apologize to any of you (Especially Robert Vermaat) for the post where I quoted his signature block "THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST" It was brought to my attention and I now realize that it could have come across as a personal attack against him and his character. Please rest assured that this is simply not the case... and my sword was never drawn against him personally but against this issue. Its not really drawn against any Manufacturer/supplier either. My intent was to understand the rules and to make the ground level when It comes to a "Track Record" for both "GOOD" and "BAD" experiences. I have had some suppliers that I have purchased from here bend over backwards to make something that went wrong in the transaction "RIGHT AGAIN."

If we are able to voice our situation or how we were dealt with as a customer... then It would make all of the manufacturer/suppliers realize that "Ethical Business Practices" are demanded here and that they cannot abuse the system, nor one of RAT's Members and get away with it time after time. Simply said. That was my intent in this thread.

Again, I apologize to anyone that may have taken offense to my reply to Robert Vermaat... Especially Robert himself. And... thank you for holding ME "Accountable" as well!

Patrick

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The rules: "Commercial enterprises with no other interest than sales and marketing will not be allowed to advertise their wares anywhere on RAT or actively seek product or marketing information anywhere on RAT, likewise members are prohibited from posting on behalf of a commercial enterprise so restricted, whether formally or informally. "

This particular statement means that if you want to come to RAT, you must come here not to only sell a product, but also to develop or improve your products. It also means that if your product has no correlation to the Ancient/Classical/Byzantine Era, you cannot post it here for advertizement.