Lorica Musculata made of Metal or leather?

[M. Val. Naso]

Sardaukar:


In later times, even rank-and-file soldiers are depicted in them.

[PhilusEstilius]

Here are a couple of pictures that show a stylized cuirass and a more practical type that would been used for the wearer to be able to seat a horse. The Prima Porta that is telling us a piece of history and the other is the more shorter one shown on a statue of Drusus in a museum in Cagliari Sardinia.
[attachment=7130]IMG_0080Medium2.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=7131]00001109Medium.jpg[/attachment]

[PhilusEstilius]

When we search for information regarding the Prima Porta cuirass we find that there is statement that this armour was made of leather, however I would very much like to know just where the evidence for such a statement has come from.
[attachment=7132]Statue-Augustus1Medium.jpg[/attachment]

[jho]

Analysis of color remains of the statue has shown that while most parts were colored in blue and red, Augustus' skin and the musculata were left uncolored:

link

Not sure what that means for the material of the musculata. Beyond that, I do not see any other basis for deductions on the material.

[Titus Manlius Verus]

In this section of Trajan's column, it appears that the gent, third from the right, is an officer, and is wearing some form of musculata.


[attachment=7175]035_CO1.JPG[/attachment]

Also, here is one of praetorians wearing musculata. This means that enlisted may have worn musculata, but it may have been limited only to the praetorians.

[attachment=7177]250px-Praetorian_GuardSoldiers_basrelief_med.jpg[/attachment]


And here is one of a centurion in musculata. I believe that this may be the Teutoberg Wald memorial, but I'm uncertain.


[attachment=7176]200px-Epitaph_des_Marcus_Caelius.jpg[/attachment]


All of these prove that musculata was in service for much of the imperial period. Given the lack of examples and descriptions relating to the common soldiery, it's safe to assume that musculata was probably a "custom made" piece of kit that was available only to those fortunate enough to have the status and rank that would allow them to afford such trappings of wealth.

[caiusbeerquitius]

All of these prove that musculata was in service for much of the imperial period.

Absolutely not. These prove only, if at all, that artists depicted muscalata at the time these reliefs were made.

[M. Demetrius]

I have to agree, CBQ. Sculpture doesn't always "prove" anything, it sometimes confirms other things, but should not be used as a free-standing proof reference. Art isn't always historical representation.

[Vitruvius]

Ave,Y'all
I just spent an hour going overthe Adamclisi website with Leg8 rom Frnance and that is about the only scupture I would come close to trusting as it was done around the area it happened. As far as a leather Musculata: one reason, if there was a leather musculata, they can't be found: If I were aa Gaul and found a leather musculata and it didn't fit......Say Hey Presto!!!!!! I have a great source of leather for other things.....same way with a metal musculata. My suggestion is get a leather musculata for S.C.A./Larp type combat and spend the $3,000.00 to have a custom metal one for show. That is what I am doing!lol,
Salve,
Vitruvius ,,,,,,aka Larry Mager

[Dan Howard]

As far as a leather Musculata: one reason, if there was a leather musculata, they can't be found: If I were aa Gaul and found a leather musculata and it didn't fit......Say Hey Presto!!!!!! I have a great source of leather for other things.....same way with a metal musculata.

But we have extant metal musculatas.

[jkaler48]

Statues cannot be taken as prove that the subjects actually dressed as portrayed and I illustrate this point with the following photo of a statue of George Washington.
[attachment=7478]statue.jpg[/attachment]

And here is an even better and more to the point one with GW wearing a Musculata!
[attachment=7479]statue2.jpg[/attachment]
It would be a little silly to argue whether George's musculata was leather or metal wouldn't it! :grin:

[Vitruvius]

Hi Dan, Hi JKaler,
Dan, what I was referring to is that there are not Metal musculatas from the Imperial period. Before, yes, From Augustus, not really.

@J. Kaler, Great Point....In fact we really have no proof @all of metal or leather musculatas. Unless I get a time machine and can use it to bring back a real Legate, (Boy, would he be mad.lol) to prove things one way or the other. BTW, John, thanks for the photo of G. Washington in a musculata. It's quite a Hoot!!!!!! lol

[PhilusEstilius]

I have often considered that due to the fact that no Roman metal cuirass has ever been found might imply that they were in fact made from leather, for so many other brass and bronze objects have survived but no METAL cuirass tends to beg the question WHY.

[Robert]

Well, an answer could be they were extremely rare and only worn by very, very few dignitaries. Of the thousands apon thousands of helmets, swords, pugiones and what have you, we have only a scant few pieces. The chances of one being preserved would be very, very slight indeed, considering their rarity.

[Dan Howard]

One might also ask why, out of the copious piles of surviving Roman leather artefacts we have, including leather fittings for metal armour, that not a single scrap of leather musculatas or segmentatas has survived. Maybe their armour was made of special leather that dissolved when buried while their shoes managed to remain intact for us to dig up two thousand years later.

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Y'all
Brian, A very good question indeed!

Robert, Your logic is very sound.

Dan, Scavengers may have gotten to them, I don't know, but I have to agree with Brian on this........None, metal or otherwise have survived from the Imperiate period. I have come to the conclusion that maybe there were none used in that period.