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Roman Subarmalis
#16
Whatever the ND says, that doesn't mean that pteryges were made of leather. Also, we should consider the period we're talking about. I'm afraid I assumed that it was about the 1st century, and you probably assumed it was about the Late army. We could keep discussing that way. :? Confusedilly:

But I do not have the impression that they would get tangled or bunched up. There are several members in our reenactmentgroup having pteryges, and I haven't seen them having that kind of problems with them. Of course I think that the condition for that is that they are firmly and properly attached to the subarmalis itself, and may be slightly to each other (the upper few inches).
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#17
I myself have thought of making my subarmalis with the pteryges stitched together, similar to the famous statue of the Tetrarchic emperors.
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#18
Virilis,

I too have often wondered whether shoulder pteruges might have been tied or laced together, as this would make sense of the way they are normally depicted. Lacing them together would allow them to retain the necessary flexibility but would stop them from flopping and leaving parts of the upper arm exposed.

Regarding the tetrarch statues, I have sometimes wondered if what is depicted there might not actually be pteruges but some sort of layered quilting.

Quilting brings me to some possible evidence for subarmali and also takes us back to a first century AD context. This is the series of reliefs from Arlon depicting first century AD cavalry.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CE4QrQMwEQ

The detail around the necks of the figures has often been identified as the 'bunched necks' of tunics, but as the same type of detail appears around the other edges of the armour, I think it is far more likely that what we are seeing is an attempt to depict the visible parts of vertically quilted subarmali with short quilted sleeves.

Crispvs
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#19
Quote:I too have often wondered whether shoulder pteruges might have been tied or laced together, as this would make sense of the way they are normally depicted. Lacing them together would allow them to retain the necessary flexibility but would stop them from flopping and leaving parts of the upper arm exposed.

I really was intrigued with the subarmalis that was made like a kilt, with each one connected to the others. S much inconic evidence shows the arms and waist sections hang like a "skirt". I always find it odd that the arms always never hang down like they would normally.
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#20
I hope to make an attempt soon at thoracomachus sleeves stitched to a backing. Not sure what material yet, either soft leather or wool/felt. Such a sleeve would also protect the armpit which is left unprotected with "usual" pteryges.

A much later (13th century?) byzantine depiction show a cavalryman with what looks like a padded garnment, with padded sleeves and leather (?) pteryges protecting the thighs.

Makes me wonder if he could have something similar earlier on.

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#21
Crispus wrote:

This is the series of reliefs from Arlon depicting first century AD cavalry.
www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://ra...sa=X&ved=0CE4QrQMwEQ
The detail around the necks of the figures has often been identified as the 'bunched necks' of tunics, but as the same type of detail appears around the other edges of the armour, I think it is far more likely that what we are seeing is an attempt to depict the visible parts of vertically quilted subarmali with short quilted sleeves.


I always thought that the stuff around the neck are pteruges too (in the Strategikon of Emperor Maurice, it is suggested that the strongulus throat protector is made of wool with fringes at the end), which would reinforce your suggestion and that of Virilis that they are somehow connected to prevent them from flopping over and exposing the body underneath.
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#22
I'm precisely re-doing my pteryges, and my main inspiration is this soldier, from Adamklisi

[Image: adamclisi_22.jpg]

[Image: Adamclisi_09.jpg]

It very look like that his arms pteryges are stitched. But can we believe this bas-relief beeing accurate? The manica here is backwards after all...
[Image: inaciem-bandeau.png]
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#23
After looking for a long time at the sculpture link posted way back there by Crispvs, namely,
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CE4QrQMwEQ

I think the simplest explanation IS that it represents a vertically quilted, short sleeved subarmalis. The sculptures that are regarded as "correct", such as the Augustus Prima Porta, do not show sewn-together arm pterugys. Rather than invent another "neck armor undergarment", it would be easier to believe what we already suspect. Could I prove it? No. Do I believe that's the most likely? Yes, probably. When I make my subarmalis, it will be vertically quilted and short sleeved.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

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#24
Jori wrote:

It very look like that his arms pteryges are stitched. But can we believe this bas-relief beeing accurate? The manica here is backwards after all...

Is it? What makes you think it is?

Not that I do not agree with you about the artists understanding of Roman equipment. This fellow's shoulderflap is most certainly the wrong way around:

[attachment=7144]Adamclisiverkeerdom.jpg[/attachment]


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#25
I wonder if that is supposed to represent an improvisation that could almost be a couple of plates attached, similar to seg plates?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#26
I wonder if that is supposed to represent an improvisation; that could almost be a couple of plates attached, similar to seg plates?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#27
Perhaps ...
But to me, it looks more like this, only with the flaps mixed up:


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#28
I know what it is commonly interpreted as, but then why is there only one side showing?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#29
Another mixup perhaps? Or, he made one flap, and then realized he had to make the baldric, the pteruges and the flap all come together at the other side and thought: "Oh, f..k it!" That's what all his figures look like to me, as an artist, he bit off more than he could swallow.
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#30
For the manica, the archaeological finds had all the plates inverted in comparison of the adamklisi metope. And simply by using one, if you try to point with your sword at your enemy, if the manica is mounted like Adamklisi, the enemy can easily cut your arm.

I don't know about this strange shoulder flap, why just one, and so strangely done? We could discuss about adamklisi for ages...
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