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Leather Color Help
#1
The leather that covers gladii reconstructions is normally either red or blue presumably this is what the evidence suggests. However, is there evidence for yellow or white colored leather.....from dyes or treating the leather NOT paint.

I wanted to use a different color leather for a scabbard I have in mind. I already have red and blue so a change would be nice.

Thanks
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#2
Quote:The leather that covers gladii reconstructions is normally either red or blue presumably this is what the evidence suggests.

Is it, I wonder?

What evidence do we have - painted tombstones? Something else?
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele
LEG XI CPF
COH VII RAET EQ (part of LEG XI CPF)

MA in History
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#3
We noticed that Yellow or White Leather Dye is extremly difficult to use.
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#4
There are literary references to black, white and yellow shoes (cf. Otto Lau: Schuster und Schusterhandwerk in der griechisch-römischen Literatur und Kunst, 1969), so presumably to leather of that color. White leather is the result of alum tanning, which was known at the time, so no dyeing as such is needed. Possibly the upper layer of the Gommern Belt was alum tanned.
I found that a yellow of sorts (goes a bit towards green) can be achieved with birch leaves and cold dyeing of alum tanned leather:

[Image: Dreilagenkamm_10.jpg]

The color is a bit more brighter yellow than it appears on my monitor at least. The strips show the whiteness of undyed alum tanned leather (goat leather), btw.

And yes, I'd also be interested to hear what sources there are for scabbard leather colors!

Hope that helps,
Martin
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#5
Quote:Yellow or White Leather Dye is extremly difficult to use
The modern water/alcohol based dyes were probably not used by the Ancients. They are not very color fast, unless colored by lacquer, and we know that lacquer like we use is a very modern invention. Water-based leather dyes like we buy in the stores today fade like crazy if they get wet, and transfer the color to cloth or other surfaces. Maybe, just maybe, some kind of encaustic coating could be applied that would seal the dye inside, but I have no experience with that.

You're right, Martin, about the white leather being one of the colors produced by the tanning process. The "tan" color we're most used to seeing can come from the in oak bark, and some other vegetable dye methods. Interestingly, the word tan and tanning and tannic acid and tannin are all related directly to leather processing.

I've done a little experimenting with natural dyes used for cloth, and they don't work well with leather. But there are hundreds of dye sources, and perhaps some natural dyes would work with leather, particularly the earth dyes such as ochre. Earth dyes are not usually as bright as our modern eye expects to see.

Yellow? I don't know. Maybe. They did have yellow paint. Maybe scabbards were just painted instead of dyed?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#6
Thank you for the replies. I do not have evidence about scabbard colors. I just made the statement on the assumption that the use of the two colors I mentioned is so widespread and that there must be something to suggest their use. Otherwise, colors would be MUCH more random.

Jeff, is alum tanned goat leather easy to find for purchase?

I was thinking of using saffron for a yellow dye.

I think that somewhere in Graham Sumners book there was a mention of red being used for footwear.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#7
Quote:I do not have evidence about scabbard colors. I just made the statement on the assumption that the use of the two colors I mentioned is so widespread and that there must be something to suggest their use. Otherwise, colors would be MUCH more random.

I disagree. I find that what typically happens is that the majority of people just simply copy what they see with other reenactors (or widely known and available illustrations) without ever questioning or researching. Just look at the standard caliga or carbatina, use of belt pouches with early imperial legionaries etc.

Quote:is alum tanned goat leather easy to find for purchase?

I for my part commissioned this, but would also be interested to hear of any sources.

Quote:I was thinking of using saffron for a yellow dye.

Let us know how it goes, will be interesting to hear!

Quote:I think that somewhere in Graham Sumners book there was a mention of red being used for footwear.

Yes, red also is mentioned in Lau (cited above) and also confirmed in many of the shoe finds from Achmim Panopolis (e.g. [/url]) as well as with two of the 2nd cent. AD bags from Israel (e.g. [url=http://sutor.jimdo.com/bags/roman/drawstring-bag-from-israel/])
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#8
Hello Martin,

I have been looking for the alum tanned goat leather. I will let you know if anything comes up.
Once I decide the colors, I will post on RAT.

I agree its eveyone copying someone else but it always begins with some sort of evidence for something. You provided a source that gave several colors for leather items. I think this is evidence that they colored leather items.....not ALL.....but.....

Knowing that the Romans were gregarious with their colors (vivid colors on walls, clothing dyes, statue coloring etc) AND the Romans liked to make a statment of grandeur in most of their activities, I would find it difficult to believe that their leather components on armor would be less "flashy" especially on swords that were already quite obvious....if you get my suggestion.

Cheers
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#9
Quote:everyone copying someone else but it always begins with some sort of evidence
Respectfully, Doc, not necessarily true.

Sometimes someone just decides, "Well, nobody seems to know for sure, so I'll just do this because I think it looks cool and 'Roman.'" Then other people presume they've done research, and follow suit. After a few years, people think it is true just because so many people are doing it that way.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#10
Quote:I was thinking of using saffron for a yellow dye.

Isn't that very expensive (nowadays and in Roman times)? I could be mistaken though.

Good luck with it in any case! And show us the results, whatever method you're going to use. :-)
Valete,
Titvs Statilivs Castvs - Sander Van Daele
LEG XI CPF
COH VII RAET EQ (part of LEG XI CPF)

MA in History
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#11
As it happens, Le Prevo have some alum tanned leather in their sale! Item SP743. "Off white to cream shoulders probably Alum-Tan. Very soft with a varied grain. Some faults but this is reflected in the price of £4 per ft². Sizes 13 to 17 ft² 3 to 3.5mm"

Google Le Prevo to find the site (they are in UK)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#12
Thank you for the information Vindex. I will check them out.

Saffron is costly but I do not think it will be too horrific especially since the amount of leather for a scabbard the size of a Mainz is not exaggerated. However, I will see what the prices are like to confirm my idea. Then if it turns out to be outrageous, I will foget saffron and use safflower which is also a natural dye and has a similar color to saffron.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#13
Hi all,

I have to find the notes I took during a lecture of John Coulston at university a few years ago. It was about soldiers in the late 2nd century and start of the 3rd. I remember that he talked about analysis of bog finds and paint on tombstones. If I remember correctly the leather of scabards and belts in this period was very often either red or green.

Best regards
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#14
Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the information. Wow, that green sounds rather interesting. My kit however, is from around 20 BC or other parts of it are from the 1st C AD.
Let us know if there is something else in you notes.

Cheers
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#15
There is Marc Carlsons Medieval Leather Dying.
I know it's Medieval but there's one method where they use skin of black grapes and red wine.
wouldn't that be Roman-ish?

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-car...er/ld.html
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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