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Late Roman Attic helmets
#1
Quote:Now seriously.On the speculative level, why not?In the sense of speculative reconstruction it could exist,it is possible.But not on the basis of evidence we have.And those helmet findings from 5th century and post roman period which could be considered as ridge style(because of central band holding two main parts of the helmet)does not look in shape like those later Frankish,not even in contemporary art,until 9th or so,century.

[Image: scansione0013.jpg]



Now my dear Pavel, while I was watching an old Osprey book by Colonel Macdowall, I found an interesting pic from the Arch of Constantinus in Roma, I remind you that the sculptures of the time of Costantinus in the Arch belong to the early IV century, look:

[Image: Constantinusarch.jpg]

Now look at a detail of my work:

[Image: Romancehelmet.jpg]

It's the same helmet, of course, because I had in mind exactly this helmet, now read what Colonel Macdowell writes commenting the pic of the Arch with the 'strange' almost Carolingian ridge helmet:

"..The men in the tower wear ridge-style helmets, which unlike the Attic style have been confirmed by Archeology."


Now this was exactly what I wanted to show: The ridge helmets were of many kinds and the Arch of Constantinus shows us that the later Frankish helmet of the Carolingian Age was nothing else than a Late Roman model (like the exemplar sculpted on the Arch) that continued its life without interruption till the Carolingian Age. This is probably more likely being happened in Gaul, where this simpler model of ridge-helmet, slightly enlongated on the sides, to protect the neck but also to compensate the absence of the cheek pieces, probably was largely widespread during the last years of the Western Empire, when the Public Fabricae didn't guaranteed anymore the supplies for what remained of the Roman army in Gaul. Confusedmile:

Side note: The face of my legionary is beautiful also enlarged, I'm happy! I like this man! Cool
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#2
Quote:Now this was exactly what I wanted to show: The ridge helmets were of many kinds and the Arch of Constantinus shows us that the later Frankish helmet of the Carolingian Age was nothing else than a Late Roman model (like the exemplar sculpted on the Arch) that continued its life without interruption till the Carolingian Age. This is probably more likely being happened in Gaul, where this simpler model of ridge-helmet, slightly enlongated on the sides, to protect the neck but also to compensate the absence of the cheek pieces, probably was largely widespread during the last years of the Western Empire, when the Public Fabricae didn't guaranteed anymore the supplies for what remained of the Roman army in Gaul.

I am aware this helmet is present in late antique and early medieval art, but has there ever been an actual specimen unearthed?
Very nice artwork btw!
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[Image: regnumhesperium.png]
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#3
The depictions of Attic helmets have actually been confirmed to be Intercisa IV Ridge Helmets. Just saying.

It's artistic liscense, probably. The artist is most likely representing the Helmet as if the Neck Guards were still attatched, like on previous models. Maybe some sort of transition between the Itnercisa and earlier Itallics?

Much Artistic liscense was taken on the Arch of Constantine, notably in the depiction of Lorica Segmentata, which was a stylization just like depictions of Musculata on other reliefs of that era. (Although, interestingly enough, some sets of Segmentata might have survived to constantine's time, depending on what was in the reserves.)
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#4
Quote:The depictions of Attic helmets have actually been confirmed to be Intercisa IV Ridge Helmets. Just saying.

It's artistic liscense, probably. The artist is most likely representing the Helmet as if the Neck Guards were still attatched, like on previous models. Maybe some sort of transition between the Itnercisa and earlier Itallics?

Much Artistic liscense was taken on the Arch of Constantine, notably in the depiction of Lorica Segmentata, which was a stylization just like depictions of Musculata on other reliefs of that era. (Although, interestingly enough, some sets of Segmentata might have survived to constantine's time, depending on what was in the reserves.)

Magister Simon Macdowall clearly knows what he's talking about when he writes about the reliefs of the Arch commenting the pic I've posted (originally larger but it's an Osprey title so...I posted only a small detail):

Simon Macdowall: "The helmets worn by the men on the left are the late roman style Attic helmets of single bowl construction. They are similar to the classic attic style, but different enough to make artistic convention unlikely.: the men in the tower wear ridge style helmets which, unlike the Attic style, have been confirmed by Archeology."

Soooo.....In this case and in this point of the relief the artistic convention can be excluded.

Now if you still disagree with my drawing call colonel Macdowall and tell him: 'Colonel you was wrong!'.

What I can add to this matter is that I'm very happy if my drawing is the occasion to enlarge the perspective about the ridge helmets...... Confusedmile:


Osprey - Warrior Series 15 - Simon Macdowall: 'Late Roman Cavalrymen 236-565 AD'

@ Kai for what I know, there isn't any exemplar of this kind of ridge helmets found in Gaul, nor for the Late Roman Timeframe nor for the Carolingian time, it's a mysterious long-lasting type of Roman helmet, the day in which Archeology will find one of these helmets I'll open the biggest Bottle of Champagne of my entire life!!! ;-)
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#5
I meant in later depictions of Attic-style helmets, like in the verigllian manuscripts, where they depict ancient scenes with contemporary equipment.
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#6
Carlo:I know that arch images and I agree that helmet really strongly reminds your drawing.But in this case I believe that it is not conclusive enough.Also I must ask why such helmets aren't depicted much more commonly if they already were in use by 4th.century.
I'm adding interesting picture from Dura-Europos showing helmets which also seemed to be very Carolingian in appearance but much more probably are just a stylized Niederbieber type of Roman helmet.


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#7
Quote:Side note: The face of my legionary is beautiful also enlarged, I'm happy! I like this man! Cool

Yeah, it's pretty cool if the author does not wait for compliments and praises his work himself Big Grin
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#8
Quote:My nick is Diocle so you can imagine my thoughts about Diocletianus,....But I'm surprised by your choice of Galerius! Also I like and admire Galerius ..... but I thought being the only one in the world!

Pavel you are a good man!...and a great artist!

..or better: Pavel you're a gerat man and a great artist! Confusedmile: Yeah this one is better! Cool

Oh,come on!Im getting red in the face. Big Grin but it's well for reading :evil:
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#9
Pavel, com'on! They aren't stylized Niederbiber! You konw that they aren't sylized Niederbiber because you know what it means to hold a pencil in your hand!

Pavel the very nice small paintings clearly show ridge helmets with a metal edge folded outwards who states the contrary not only lies but he is deceiving himself and the others.

Those who say that these beautiful helmets are stylized Niederbiber are like the priests who refused to look in the Galilei's telescope! :grin:

This sort of Stalinism is killing History! Too much beaurocracy, too much orthodoxy, too much clergy and too few free minds and too few serious historians ready to accept the reality whatever his name!

Look Pavel, I'm making a nice Attic surprise mainly dedicated to Magister Militum Flavius Aetius, (I like very much Magister, his head is in some way like my head, both our heads are made of stone of the most hard quality: Pure Granite! :whistleSmile

Now Pavel my dear friend, this is a study for the new soldier I'm making.....who is this man? A Carolingian Knight? A late Roman? A romance soldier? A Roman soldier of the III century?....One thing for sure he's wearing what the Anglosaxon historians call Ridge Helmet...but.....


[Image: scansione0023.jpg]


I'll give you also the iconogrephic and archeological sources from which I'm making my sketch....it's pretty surprising....
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#10
Quote:he's wearing what the Anglosaxon historians call Ridge Helmet...but.....

You might like this debate from long ago:

Frankhelms?

Sadly most of the links are dead now, and you can ignore most of my ramblings about gladiators etc... But suffice to say, I agree these helmets probably represent something real... ;-)
Nathan Ross
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#11
Quote:Pavel, com'on! They aren't stylized Niederbiber! You konw that they aren't sylized Niederbiber because you know what it means to hold a pencil in your hand!

Pavel the very nice small paintings clearly show ridge helmets with a metal edge folded outwards who states the contrary not only lies but he is deceiving himself and the others.

Those who say that these beautiful helmets are stylized Niederbiber are like the priests who refused to look in the Galilei's telescope! :grin:

This sort of Stalinism is killing History! Too much beaurocracy, too much orthodoxy, too much clergy and too few free minds and too few serious historians ready to accept the reality whatever his name!

Look Pavel, I'm making a nice Attic surprise mainly dedicated to Magister Militum Flavius Aetius, (I like very much Magister, his head is in some way like my head, both our heads are made of stone of the most hard quality: Pure Granite! :whistleSmile

Now Pavel my dear friend, this is a study for the new soldier I'm making.....who is this man? A Carolingian Knight? A late Roman? A romance soldier? A Roman soldier of the III century?....One thing for sure he's wearing what the Anglosaxon historians call Ridge Helmet...but.....


[Image: scansione0023.jpg]


I'll give you also the iconogrephic and archeological sources from which I'm making my sketch....it's pretty surprising....

It's 15th/16th century Swiss Guard, by the look.

Well, I have an excuse for my stubbornness Tongue

I can be flexible, but only with hard evidence prevented before me. Same reason I'm agnostic; I only accept facts or theories that can be backed by evidence or be derived from existing facts.

It's also the reason I don't accept string theory, in fact why I don't like much modern science, because it's no longer open to debate. If you think otherwise, you're thought to be crazy. Sort of what Muhammed said about "The Majority is always sane."
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#12
Hello Carlo

It looks like something I have already done for the second volume of Arms and Armour with Raffaele D'Amato. In which case is it based on the Ashburnam Pentateuch?

If so then I have painted the whole figure which I sadly cannot show until publication, hopefully next year. It might be the front cover so it could be seen if there is any advance publicity.

If it is based on that source, then according to D'Amato's interpretation which I have realised, then I would say your helmet is too much like a Spanish morion, and there was no feathered crest. However you may not agree with D'Amato's interpretation, as indeed you are entitled too. You would not be the only one who would disagree I am sure!

Then again I might have guessed the wrong source you have used entirely!

Remember though, that the Anglo-Saxon scholars which includes me too, do prefer to work from actual archaeological finds as well as the literary and iconographic sources, rather than purely the ancient iconography.

I really did like the architectural detail in your sketch of the Hunnic bodyguard. Original finds like that is something you do have an advantage over us Anglo-Saxons, as they must lie all around you.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#13
Quote:
Diocle post=336033 Wrote:he's wearing what the Anglosaxon historians call Ridge Helmet...but.....

You might like this debate from long ago:

Frankhelms?

Sadly most of the links are dead now, and you can ignore most of my ramblings about gladiators etc... But suffice to say, I agree these helmets probably represent something real... ;-)

Nathan you are a honest man!...and you can clearly read my mind about gladiatorials Helmets and this kind of Roman Helmets.... :whistle:

Nathan you see the light, Nathan you are a free spirit, Nathan you are right...and...remember:


VERITATEM TEMPUS APERIT

@ Graham Somner: A new book! Wonderful news, wonderful news Master Graham, It will be mine!

My source wasn't the one you quoted I'll put it here when the drawing will be ready, and I'm not against the British Academic world...my sketches are only thoughts of an Architect knowing the Latin and of an old wargamer about Late Antiquity, I'm not an historian, I'm a reader and this thread for me is only like a talk using the sketches more than the wrods, nothing more.

What I was talking about was some kind of orthodoxy that is enveloping we all, not only the British Academy of course, I feel like a growing rigidity in the academic world everywhere...but this is only a personal feeling, nothing more.

And yes thank you very much about the Architecture in my sketch (even if the capitals are invented!)! But it's easy for me because I'm drawing Architectures for work from many years, as I said I'm an architect and working in Architecture in Italy means drawing ancient buildings for great part of your professional life, whatever you do in Italy you'll find always an ancient building ready to be destroied by some Italian Architect! :whistle:
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#14
Carlo,I found yet another interesting pictures.I think you dont know this one,because if you knew you would almost certainly used it.It's from cathedral treasury in Milan and it shows Roman soldiers guarding the tomb of Christ.
Here,I agree those helmets clearly resemble something you drew.Also their shields are interesting-such lion head shaped umbo were found also from 3rd and 6th century.I'm not sure about the date of this work,I found different views ranged from 4-6th century.But still I am remaining rather sceptical.


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#15
It's probably 3rd, that one soldier appears to be wearing a hamata with a doubler.

Thinking of 3rd Century, my current work is a member of the Legio VI Ferrata, under Phillip the Arab, 244. Will upload it tomorrow.
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