Correct hafting for a francisca throwing axe?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yeah, but you have to stand quite far from the audience. I've witnessed a francisca changing path contacting the shield, and flying in a totally different direction, fast and furious

Yes, but as with any weapons demo, if they are behind you, or far off to the sides, then it is ok.

My first francisca, which is quite heavy, would take out anything, regardless of how it hit! :evil:
I purchased a lighter one, with a curved handle, that feels more natural as a thrower though.

[M. Demetrius]

I think you're right, GJC about the weight/impact.

From what I've read about the use of the Francisca, they were NOT thrown directly at the target at least some of the time, but at the ground in front of the line of men. They they bounced up at unpredictably crazy angles, and made the front couple of ranks subject to bouncing axes from above, below, and the sides. Hard to dodge a volley of dozens of axes from several directions. As you say, no matter how a kilo of steel and wood hits you, it's going to be demoralizing at the very least. If it hits you with its cutting edge, well, that's real trouble.

Add to that, iirc, some of the lines of axe hurlers carried more than one of them, so the barrage would be like that of javelins, only less of a simple defense. Add the two together, and it would certainly make the recipients gnash their teeth. :!:

[Medicus matt]

"And they are accustomed always to throw these axes at one signal in the first charge and thus shatter the shields of the enemy and kill the men"
Procopius.

I think that's the only classical account which describes them being used? Anything else is (I believe) based on observations on what happens when we throw them. Dropshorts do bounce up alarmingly, which means that they're still a menace to the opposition but I can't imagine anyone throwing them at the ground on purpose...they might just stick in.

[M. Demetrius]

Maybe, but more likely, they'd keep on going downrange at a sudden new angle. Get a hatchet and try it a few times. They impact the ground at an angle more along their line of flight than they would if they hit a vertical target.

Truth is, at a "non-standard" distance, getting one to stick is not likely. But even bouncing off a shield up in the air still has a dangerous weapon flying off at a new direction. A soldier could be hit and never even see the incoming axe.

[AlexV]

"And they are accustomed always to throw these axes at one signal in the first charge and thus shatter the shields of the enemy and kill the men"
Procopius.

Hi all,
another text is supposed to speak about the franciskas, from agathias or procopius, telling this was used to kill someone (a local king? a king's representant?) by a headshot, in a public assembly.

For the distances of throwing, some works were made in France (elswhere maybe?) by Edouard Salin (see book 1, "la civilisation mérovingienne") and by Patrick Perrin ( "Les Francs"). Due to the rotation, there is some ranks of distance to respect if you want to hit the target with the sharp. Or better, with the top tip.
If we look after the franciskas in archaeology, thete is often an special angle between the woodenhandle and the top tip. E.Salin said this was an compromise between the "idealistic" throwing axe (angle = 145°) and the usefull closecombat weapon (90°), in regards the distance of throwing was arround 12/18 metters.

S. Apollinaris tell us that the franks were skilled to use it from childhood to the battlefield. With his sentences about the method of attack with javelins/franciskas and semispathas, using the axes to make a sort of "chaotic massive bounce" seems to be unrealistic: running after is weapon with uge chances to take if in your proper face is not profitable ^^

I have just one model of franciska (typ. I:A for the Heubener's classification, some others with correct angulation, weight, method of manufacturing are in progress), and i seen that if you throw it with a large gesture from your back to a psition upon your head, a straight trajectory is possible, and hit a 40cm of diameter target a 18m is not so hard. The mùajor difficulty is to hit this with the sharp..


ps: this is my first message here, i havent seen yet if there is a place to present myself(if needed). Sorry if this is the case, just tell me

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There is a newcomers section, somewhere, but don't feel bad for missing it!
I was on here a couple of years before someone mentioned it! 8)
Welcome to RAT!

Yes, that is precisely what we are referring to, it is difficult to be sure you will hit wit ht he sharp edge,
but even so, a volley of axes will cusse chaos, even if the yare bouncing of the ground etc.

And yes, a skilled thrower will undoubtedly understand the precise distance required to
hit a chosen target, as in the assassination mentioned.

But with mass volley, it would not be so important, as the devastation will still ensue!

[C. Gadda]

hello

what is the source of this draw?

Not sure. Jeroen Zuiderwijk posted it over on another forum, and claimed it was from Southern Germany.

[C. Gadda]

You know, I may have answered my own question. Ran across this on the web (see attached pic); looks like the answer

is "C":

There is also the possibility that once the wood had degraded from the metal that it was distorted in the ground. That curve may be as a result of many years of ground pressure.

Sure, anything's possible. But it seems odd to have such a gentle, even curve. I think I'll stick with Occam's Razor on this one, unless some sort of other hard evidence (or experimental work that shows that this design is wholly impractical in some fashion) is produced to show that this is wrong. It's the only solid piece of evidence to go on, unless something else comes up, so I'm going to take it at face value.

[AlexV]

Hi,

I have open a thread on our new discussion-forum here (discussion place of our data base "milles germanii") : http://litus.creer-forums.fr/t3-francisk...he-head#51
I'm still searching how to fit the head, how could be the handle, and same for Angos