Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor

[Nathan Ross]

the shape of the helmet, not really in use by the time of Severius Acceptus, makes me think that this stele is just an evocative way of depicting this centurion.

This style of helmet is actually quite usual for the 3rd century and later - in visual depictions anyway. Helmets of similar appearance turn on on grave stelae, the Dura Europos murals and imperial sculpture. Rather than being 'evocative' or the product of classicising 'artistic license' I would see it as entirely realistic, like the rest of Acceptus's gear - the spatha and belt fittings, for example.

A friend alerted me for this in the crypt of the "Abbazia di San Domenico Abate a Sora", Italy

Thanks - never seen that before! It does look quite similar to the Acceptus version...

Perhaps the undergarment is unusual in its design, and was painted to reflect some rank distinction?

Or perhaps it isn't an undergarment? We might assume that padded or quilted 'armour' would be low quality, but perhaps this is actually quite a prestigious item, and does indeed reflect higher rank?

I think the belt is a quite ordinary 3rd-century ring buckle belt, btw, not an officer's sash.

[MarcusNorwood]

This looks like some ancient Chinese armor. Maybe you could reference Eastern examples when considering how best to construct something like this.

[Jori]

H. Russel Robinson, in his "oriental armour" show a rectangular scale identified as a piece of lamellar armour, found in Doura Europos.



This could be the scale (or lamella)that I need, but I don't really understand the lacing of this for a lamellar armour. It's supposed to stand without a support textile?

Other elements that can help : In Samarkand, we have the Orlat plaques. They are dated Ist century AD.
In these bone plaques, we clearly see lamellar armours.


Full article about those plaques : http://www.transoxiana.org/Eran/Articles/mode.html

Those armours are really different from those of Palmyra tough. But it's the good era, in a "not soOOoo far" country.

[TDawson]

Jori:

the Dura lamellar is a completely exposed lacing system. It survived in Tibet into modern times. Google Dura lamellar and you will get pictures of the original lacing diagrams.

Timothy

[Robert Vermaat]

What I don't understand in this, is why bother to sculpt the helmet, the greaves, the shield, the belt and gladius, and not the armour? The subarmalis seems to me a minor piece of the equipment.
Ancients had different mentalities, but in this, they would represent what would be seen by all, not a subarmalis.

A valid argument, and I can't say anything against the logic of it.

So we're faced with two possibilities for the Roman military:

- sometimes a padded garment was used as armour
or
- there was a lamellar-type armour in use that we never found traces of.

[MarcusNorwood]

What about the sleeves? Metal manicae? Or leather/fabric?

[Jori]

Timothy Dawson > I googled everything I could, but I did not find ways of lacing that particular almost square lamella .

It doesn't have a hole(s) at the bottom of the scale for attaching the next row, it looks very different from other lamella.

I'm unable also to see the size of this scale. If it's tiny, I can only lace it with linen. If it's big, maybe I can lace it with leather...

Robert Vermaat > I agree with your conclusion. I want it to be a lamellar, but padded armour would be fine also, if we could explain the real function of this kind of armour? Against what kind of weapon a padded armour should be more effective than other protections?

[deepeeka]

Hi

I have been intending to develop a good quality lamellar armour. If after all these discussions, if someone is willing to provide the best inputs, we would be happy to develop one model especially for RAT members.

I would love to hear your feedback on the same.

Gagan

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I would love to see that, especially if it was suitable for a myriad of impressions (Roman, Hun, Sarmatian, Sassanid)

[koechlyruestow]

Robert Vermaat wrote:

- sometimes a padded garment was used as armour
or
- there was a lamellar-type armour in use that we never found traces of.

It might well be the armour of the three Palmyran gods is another example of a lamellar type armour that we never found traces of. The archeological record of the principate in the West, although abundant, is far from complete, let alone the archeological record of the Middle East.

Another example: though many excellent representations of the Ionian helmet exist, suggesting it was very popular among the Asian Greeks, the helmet itself has never been found.

[TDawson]

Jori:

OK. for some reason this time a web search did not throw up good images.

Some scans from Simon James' book were posted to a previous thread:

http://s127.photobucket.com/user/faventi...1.jpg.html
http://s127.photobucket.com/user/faventi...s.jpg.html
http://s127.photobucket.com/user/faventi...1.jpg.html

However these have been completely misunderstood by the academics and that misunderstanding has been perpetuated by some re-enactors.
Primarily James proposed that they were to be used inside out.

Here is a picture of the same construction on a full cavalry harness in the Royal armouries Museum in Leeds UK. (Ignore the sleeves.)
[attachment=6989]RAM_XXVIA.106_2_sml.jpg[/attachment]


And, of course, it is all in the book! :-)

Timothy

[Theodosius the Great]

First proposal for actually doing the armour, compatible with carnuntum plates.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So, in the left, my personal idea for the shoulders :

- brass plates, some are tinned, others not.
- around the shoulders, leather
- each scale is attached with a brass wire, like the scales from Carnuntum

My main idea here is to insert a layer of leather or linen between the rows.

I tried to schematize the idea.

What do you think of it? Could it be a real armour from I century AD?

I don't know a better way to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together to make this as an armor of a regular legionary.

Yeah, neat drawing! I wonder how such a ring pull device is supposed to be mounted onto the shoulder. If it's mounted on a single plate I don't know if that puts too much stress on it. Any ideas :?

~Theo

[koechlyruestow]

Theo wrote:

I wonder how such a ring pull device is supposed to be mounted onto the shoulder. If it's mounted on a single plate I don't know if that puts too much stress on it. Any ideas?

If the shoulder flap is simply an extension of the back plate of the armour, like it seems to have been the case in many Roman anatomical cuirasses, with the actual connection between the back plate and the front plate on top of the shoulder, the shoulder flap simply covering the fastening up with a nice hellenising detail, the shoulderflap is only tied down to keep itself in place. That would put little force on the connection with the ring.

[koechlyruestow]

This sandstone relief of the Semitic god Aphlad has been found in or near Dura Europos, 54CE:

[attachment=7009]aphlad.jpg[/attachment]

Note the similarity in style with the divine triad. The Assyrian style boots are now visible.
It would seem to be a kind of padded cuirass, with perhaps a mail or small plates lining.
There also is a statue example in the Iraq Museum, of Assur-bel found in Hatra, with Nikè at his feet, but it seems to have been lost during the looting of the museum. I only know it from Roman Ghirshman's Parthes et Sassanides. It shows a clear representation of a lorica segmentata with hellenising shoulder flaps and pteruges, Iranian torque, and closing on the sides instead of on the chest! Has anyone seen it on the internet?

[TDawson]

I would say it is a leather cuirass with stamped or incised decoration of a completely non-Roman style.

Recalling an earlier phase in the discussion, the way the pteruges are shown projecting stiffly at right angles on the right shoulder is noteworthy.

Timothy