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Hello,
As I can see on late roman military tunics from Piazza Armerina mosaics, the ornaments depicted here are corresponding to types of the armours. For example this one:
http://scherminator.com/italy/sicily/pia...rina13.jpg
His tunic is clearly showing shoulderguard plates from old lorica segmentata.
There are other figures with typical shoulderparts of lorica musculata.
So I would like to know your opinion about this kind of continuation of Lorica segmentata in ornaments.
Thanks
Massimiliano Fedel
Classical Archaeology, Roman military Archaeology, Roman provincial Archaeology, Archaeology of Aquileia
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Hi Massimiliano!
Interesting point, never thought of that. Anyway, in my opinion the decorative patterns at the shoulder of the tunic are just decorations and not necessarily depicting the shoulder guards of a Lorica Segmentata. If that were so, then the decorations on the sleeves might represent vambraces and then we would be in a deep sh...  ! Btw, I always see roman things in everyday objects, like in a peppermill head I see a pommel of a gladius etc.....
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I think I have to agree with Virilis on this and are they not maybe some kind of reinforce possibly of leather over the cloth garment.
Brian Stobbs
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Hello,
so yes, it could be just accidentaly, but it´s really interesting. In this mosaic there are depicted 4 shoulder stripes, as it was usually typical for sculptural depiction of LS. There is also another soldier wearing the same kind of tunica, and another persons wear tunicas with ornament simmilar to lorica musculata:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...oldato.JPG
http://www.comitatus.net/images/comitatustunics4.jpg
http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/Vit...inian5.jpg
During the 3rd century using of body armour degreed, and so some of the soldiers (light troops) could use these ornaments as "memory", or simply they would like to present themself with atributes typical for soldier. It is clear this type of tunica originated on danube frontier and has been used by soldiers.
But that´s all just my opinion 
Massimiliano Fedel
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Well, according to Nicasie, Coulston, Southern and Dixon, Vegetius' story of armour being abandoned by the late Roman soldier is rather dubious.
However, the shoulder stripes a reference to or even a remnant of armour seems unlikely to me. The Roman tunica may have been a monochrome red, but in the Middle East, where the late Roman, long-sleeved tunic came from, armbands, shoulderstraps and decorative panels are already shown on the uniforms of Assyrian and Achaemenid soldiers. Therefore, my guess is that it is a coincidence.
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Yes Vegetius´ story about it is wrong, body armour has been continually in use, but there had to be degree of armour use. We have no proof that legionary tunics were red.
Massimiliano Fedel
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Red was a prominent color of roman military tunic, but it was not standardised.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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Quote:so yes, it could be just accidentaly, but it´s really interesting. In this mosaic there are depicted 4 shoulder stripes, as it was usually typical for sculptural depiction of LS. There is also another soldier wearing the same kind of tunica, and another persons wear tunicas with ornament simmilar to lorica musculata:
These decorations have nothing to do with armour or 'the memory of armour'. In fact, this is how all tunica manicata were decorated, with patches (square segmentae, round orbiculi) or several stripes on the shoulder. In fact, this type of dress is not even military, everybody was wearing it. So no uniform, no military connections, no 'memory of armour' whatsoever I fear. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. ;-)
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Quote:Red was a prominent color of roman military tunic, but it was not standardised.
Some historians argue, that the masses prefered cheap colors. Grey, brown and red were rather cheap colors looking to ancient production processes.
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If I'm correct the only known method of producing red (using some kind of ground beetle I think) comes out as a salmon color at best.
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Quote: ...comes out as a salmon color at best.
Hmmm...is that male-speak for pink??
 hock: ;-)
Moi Watson
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MMFA:
Madder and bedstraw were both used for dyeing red. The shade only depends on your purse, you could get salmon pink to deep reddish purple (there was also a breed of sheep for the latter).
After off-white, red can be found the most in/on sources.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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Awesome, thanks Mark.
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(Red vs. Blue Reference if you dont get it)
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