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Re Reenactors with Shield Designs from the Notitia
#31
Quote:
Mark George Little post=338491 Wrote:The problem is, that the Valeria page of the NotDig mentions Auxilia Herculensia, Ursarensia, Fortensia, Insidiatorum. The first three are foot companies, and the designs are found on the page, where they list every single one in a bunch. Is it possible, that the word auxilia here means vexillatio? I think my idea is not far fetched, since Valentinian brought auxiliary forces from the West against quadi and sarmatians in 374/375.
I don't think so, if they say auxilia they mean auxilia. vexellatio means part of a unit, and it could of course have been a vexillatio of an auxilia unit. But we continue to find old-style infantry and cavalry units named cohort and ala, etc., so I wouldn't worry about a unit named 'auxilia'.
On the other hand, you may be looking at part of a new-style Auxilia Palatina unit?

My base question is: do you think these foot units (Herculensia, Ursarensia, Fortensia) could be somehow related (in unit organization and is shield design as well) to their similarly sounding counterparts in the West (Herculiani, Ursarienses, Fortenses)?

Auxilia Herculensia is probably derived from their station, Ad Herculem, with the -ensis suffix, we would think. But this does not hold true with the fact considered, that Herculensia is also found within Pannonia Secunda. I assume these were limitanei forces detached from Herculiani Seniores. (Such as there are numerous dalmatian horsemen spread all over the ripa, but all coming from the same base unit).

The same "spread" is with the Ursarensia: we can found a regiment named Ursarienses under Dux tractus Armoricani et Nervicani and also under Dux Raetiae and also at Valeria Ripensis. We can find Fortensia as Fortenses under Comes Hispenias.

We find the same practice used with the Pacatianenses, which is under Comes Illyricum, but the Tribunus cohortis Pacatianensis is under Dux Tingitaniae (Morocco) as well.

Sorry if it is a bit chaotic, I'm in the middle of my exams at uni, I'll try to organize this after I get some rest.
Mark - Legio Leonum Valentiniani
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#32
Quote: If the Notitia was updated until 425 then any Palantine units would have been recalled to fight the Goths and the invasion of 406 and all the usurpers of that era. If it was updated until 435-442 (I have a theory that it was, I will explain later) then the auxilia palatina units would have either been recalled or paper units (not existing IRL)
Part of the |Notitia were updated, other parts weren't, so we don't know really.
On the other hand, palatine units were never 'recalled' or something. One of the problems with the Roman army was that new units were created for a certain task, such as mobile reserve, but in emergencies they were used to fortify the borders. Such units, as we can see from several examples in the ND, then got 'stuck' and never returned to their parent units. Many became permanently separated and continued as independent units.

Even, if you have any sources mentioning the recalling of such units I sure like to read them, but to my knowledge we don't have any such information.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#33
Quote:Were the old-style cohorts and alae still called auxilia, or was the term exclusively used for the palatine units? There's a rescript from Diocletian confiming that service in 'a cohort' was still inferior to and paid less than service in a legion, so the old distinction was still in force then. When did it change? When did these 'barbarian' numeri gain the title auxilia palatina anyway?

(sorry, bit of a different question I know!)

Yeah, we're digressing again.. Wink

I'm not sure. Such old titles might have stuck of course, even though the auxilia as an army class had long gone, even though we never read about any official disbanding of it. I'm also not sure how to interpret that rescript. Diocletian raised many 'legions', all new-style army, and all paying more than the old style units, including the old style legions. Later we get the pay differences between limitanei, comitatenses and palatini, maybe there was indeed a further difference within the limitanei as well?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#34
Hi Mark,

All your suggestion can be right and wrong! Fact is, we don't know. With Herculis, this can indeed refer to a militia from that town, or to a vexillation from a town named after the garisson.. we just can't be sure.
About shield designs though, I doubt that vexillationes retained the same pattern, but I can't back up why. I just presume that unit, especially after becoming independent entities, also have their own typical shield design.

The Herculiani werea palatine legion, the Ursarienses were comitatenses, as were the Fortenses.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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