Centurion Weapons

[Gaius Colletti]

So before we go running around saying something is "good", we should have a look at the real evidence and see how close the
reproduction is. Of course ANY reproduction will have something amiss even if you go custom. However, there is a difference between
small errors and gross mistakes, as appear on this item in question.

For the record, I wasn't running around preaching how "good" the sword/scabbard was. However, for the price you get a great sword. Yes it is a little heavy, but aside from getting a $700 Albion, there isn't much of a market.

For $700 someone getting into the hobby could get a very decent kit assembled

[Doc]

I do not want to get into a He said She said argument. My comment about running around and making assertions is general ESPECIALLY if someone is just getting into the hobby…..it’s a word of caution. There are many people in this hobby (not necessarily you Matt) who have a vested interest in selling items and will say whatever necessary to push or sell an item.
That sword, I am sorry to say, is TERRIBLE at any price and there are other places to go to for off the shelf stuff that are better. I did mention other vendors other than custom.
On another note, Matt, when you mention Albion swords its as if they are the only ones making swords. Albion swords are overpriced and are not the best by a LONG SHOT albeit they are decent.

[jvrjenivs]

Not to say that a decent USD 700,-- kit sounds very unrealistic. For that money you have some proper soft/off-duty kit yes, but nowhere near a complete soldiers kit.

(And yes, I know that there are differences in budget and differences in what we appreciate between US and EU, but aren't we here to also add some scientific notes to the kit)

[Doc]

Well said Jurjen. I did not mention the $700 as either unrealistic or realistic because I have not really priced anything
in terms of mass produced kit. My pieces are custom pieces that I wait A LONG LONG LONG time for and they do cost more.
However, I save a little here and there and because the pieces take long to make, I can pay them.

[Robert]

I do suppose it is a matter of definition to be able to call something "a great sword". If your aim is to impress children or the uninformed public waving a piece of shiny steel around, I do suppose the sword under discussion is a great sword. But then you do state yourself it is a bit heavy. There is a good reason for that, namely that all Indian swords are (by law) very, very blunt. This works its way through in the entire blade, as the sword has way too much mass due to its edge being 1 mm or more thick. I have handled originals and I assure you these are not as over dimensioned as the Indian "off-the shelf" swords. But even then there are differences between Indian producers, as a sword is more then just a blade, scabbard fittings and the handle should also conform to the known archeological record.
So I agree with Doc's advice to look around and ask around to find a reasonably priced sword that is reasonably accurate. I also agree with his cautionary remarks towards someone just getting into the hobby. Take it slow and get your kit build up over time, that way, you will find you can get a good set of gear together without shelling out for things you later have to scrap as your knowledge grows. When I just got into the hobby, I too made the mistake of acquiring a sword (Deepeeka spatha) which I now know to be crap. Wrong grip, way too heavy, scabbard plates unperforated etc. It is now sitting somewhere gathering dust awaiting the day I will rip it apart to see if I can rework it to something I can wear without inviting ridicule. Good thing my present impression is an army blacksmith :wink: .

[Doc]

Well stated Robert

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Robert do you really feel you would be ridiculed for having an off the shelf spatha? I think if people would ridicule me (to my face or behind my back) about my kit I wouldn't want to stay in the hobby very long. Maybe it was just a figure of speech but I think this is what some people find frustrating about re-enactment. We're trying to attract people to the hobby right? I get the accuracy thing, really I do and I know there are parts of my kit that need improving...I'm working on it and I'm always learning. But it all comes down to what you are doing this for. Some of us get together a few times a year to dress up in our kit and have a good time playing Roman soldier. Yes we want to be accurate but really it doesn't matter if the sword weighs too much or if it is blunt. Others do it more regularly and for more scientific reasons and to them it does matter how much the sword weighs because it is part of the experiment. There is room for both groups because the guys who have blunt off the shelf Indian swords can learn from those who have custom swords. We talk about teaching and informing the public but it can start right within our own groups. When we see accurate cool stuff we want it too. It motivates us to make or get better kit. But if we are ridiculed for our effort we give up and pack it in.

[Doc]

No Jay, I think that he would not be ridiculed for having an off the shelf spatha. I think he means being ridiculed by
having an off the shelf spatha that is inaccurate or not based on any hard evidence. I completely understand that sometimes
its cool to get together on the weekends and play Roman soldier BUT this is all fun and good when you are NOT in front
of an audience who is looking for you to tell them something about the Romans, their weapons, etc. Having a scabbard whose
design is not based on reality or loosely based on reality, a blade that is polished to a mirror finish, caliage with regular sweat sock (yes, I have seen
this), helmets with masks that would not have masks on them.........the list goes... is really feeding the uninformed with more
misinformation.

The bluntness of the sword is not an issue because it can be explained for safety reasons. However, if a member of the audience
asks you to handle your sword and you give it to them, they will be under the impression that the sword in ancient times really
had that weight. So either you tell that person that the weight is off and that the originals would have been lighter or you keep
the truth to yourself and have the person think that Roman swords were heavy. Of course this leads to more nonsense.

Fact is that a private event is one thing but if you do reenactment in front of the public, then the kit should be nearly as
accurate as people who do experiments. I am a private collector and I do not go to events but if I am going to spend my money
it will be on something good. If I cannot afford it, I will let it go until I can. That is one part of the hobby definition,
you take your time.....months and years to assemble something of value not a collection of whatever you want to call it.

For instance, what is the sense of buying a mass produced sword like the Pompeii in question (above) and have to take it apart
and remodel parts of it? Why not just make it from scratch yourself. You could just buy a blade for a decent price and finish
the hilt and scabbard yourself. I am learning to make my own things, I am not an expert smith. Its like buying a completely new
car with doors that do not open well and having to rebuild them. I am sorry but that is really backwards.

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Doc I agree. We've talked about this before (Italic D with mask, thanks for the jab! ). When doing displays in public we need to know our stuff and we should be able to explain what is accurate, what is probable and what is purely artistic license. For me I do one public event and one private event a year. That's the extent of my re-enactment. For the public event we aren't allowed to pull out our weapons so it's not an issue but perhaps belt plates or heaven forbid white gym socks would be an issue (got a picture of the socks and did they have stripes? :twisted: ).

I think my post was to say that if we want people from the "weekend warrior" Romans to move into the "research" Romans then we have to be encouraging rather than ridiculing even if they turn up with something not quite right. Help them improve. At my first event I was encouraged to take apart my crap Indian belt and make my own. I salvaged the parts that were good and tossed what wasn't. For the next belt I just made my own, I researched and asked questions and I learned. This method motivates people to do better. Rather than say "it's crap or terrible or inaccurate" We could say "Hey nice whatever, you know what? it wouldn't take much to modify that so that it looks like"...insert whichever artifact. We can do it in a way that we don't come off as being elitist. That's all I'm saying. I very much respect the pains that many on here go to in order to make something as accurate as possible and we all learn from your example and wealth of knowledge.

[Robert]

Hi Jay, thanks for your concern. Perhaps not, perhaps so. I do think most people would be far too polite to point it out, but I have come to realise it is glaringly wrong and that can be seen by all. So I could perhaps beter state I would feel uncomfortable wearing it in company who know their gear, even if they would not ridicule me outright.

On sharpness versus bluntness, a blade with a 0.2 mm edge is as sharp as a toddlers spoon. Many Indian blades have edges of over 1 mm. Now, 0.8 mm difference may not sound like much, but in a blade with a 6 mm spine, it accounts for a lot of added weight, as all that extra metal is on both sides and can easily add an extra 30 % weight. Also, Indian blades are tip heavy because of the lack of distal taper, the spine stays about the same thickness throughout the blade. Perhaps the reason being it is very difficult to sharpen a blade with an edge over 1 mm should you want to, while a blade with a 0.2 mm edge only needs an accusharp or something like that to turn it into something lethal.
But like I said, there is more to a sword then just the blade and when I acquire Miks I could not find a single guard, grip, pommel and pommelnut that looked anything like the one on my first sword :whistle: . The scabbard had a few issues, too ..... But then again, that was a few years ago. When you buy an off the shelf item, and most of us have and will, it is advisable get one as good as possible and learn more about the "why" in the process.

[Doc]

Exactly Robert.

Jay, No jab at you. I did not remember that you were the one with the mask. However, it is not only that sort of thing I
was referring to but often to the overuse of masks for certain impressions giving the wrong idea.

I agree that we must encourage someone and not ridicule them. HOWEVER, it must be determined at what level of the hobby
this someone is at. If a person is totally new, then yes, a ridicule will turn them away and frankly would be counter productive.. If a reenactor has been around and wears something totally off, then there is no excuse and must bite the bullet. There is nothing at this point to discourage.

[Gaius Colletti]

Doc, but the SOTW is based off of the Guttman gladius: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a...ID=4265328

[Doc]

Hello Matt,
Is it? Take a good look at the original. If anything it is very loosely based. Just because the caption on SOTW site says it’s based on the Guttman does not mean it really is especially if someone has a close look. For one thing, the spine of the sword of the Guttman is not as pronounced as the SOTW reproduction. The chape on the SOTW....I do not think that I have EVER seen that design (if one exists, I would like to see it and I will retract my statement) and I too have seen Miks as Robert has. The hilt looks like wood used in modern furniture whereas the evidence for wood used in Roman hilts is generally pointing in the direction of light colors i.e. birch.

The tip of the blade on the original looks like a Philips head screwdriver it is not flat. As far as I know, most of Pompeii gladii show this feature. There may be one that does not and I am not aware of it.
To be fair, I reserve judgement on the SOTW locket because I cannot see it well.
I know that the sword is $130 so what can one expect for that price....agreed. HOWEVER, the companies that produce these weapons are more than capable of making these products correctly BUT they do not.
If you are going to tell me that it was made by SOTW, then all I can say is that a better sword should have been made.
Otherwise, again, and this is my opinion, the SOTW sword should be classified as Pompeii gladius and make no other claim of similarity since it does not look like the original nor should there be a claim of glaring authenticity.
One could say, that if I do not like it, then do not buy it. Agreed on this point as well BUT others should not be told to buy something that really is not very good and expect people who research weapons very well to just go along with it.
I am not saying, Matt, you are suggesting we just keep to ourselves but what I am suggesting is to be ready for criticism.

[Gaius Colletti]

That is fair, anyone calling something a replica should be prepared to defend it as such

[Doc]

Agreed. Nice conversing with you.