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04-10-2004, 05:35 PM

Avette 
 
I've now got my own Lorica Segmentata, and thrilled beyond belief, mostly because it fits quite well and I can bend over and around! (I had been using Mus. Rep's armor before as that was what was available, but anyways...) After wearing the armor for a few hours, I noticed there was quite a bit of flash-rusting that occured around the armpit plates (where the metal is rolled over) and parts of the back/shoulder blade plates. I figure the armpit-areas will get rusted no matter what I do due to sweating, the tunica and subarmalis are able to do only so much sweat absorbtion. 
 
Luckily 99% of the rust was removed with machine oil, WD-40 and a heckuva lot of elbow grease 
 
I'd like some suggestions as to what to do to help prevent as much rust as possible. I use cotton gloves (museum protocol as well) when handling/putting on/off the armor as best I can. Is is possible to paint the inside of the armor plates with [black] paint as done in medieval/renassiance era to help prevent rusting, can I get away with something like Rustoleum (at least the word sounds Latin? ) 
 
- I'm willing to sacrifice a little historical accuracy for preservation and maintence..I know that'll get me in trouble with many of you but after the fiasco and money to get this danged armor in the first place, I wanna keep it as best I can! - 
 
I know I'll have to seriously retrofit my subarmalis to give better padding and have more material in areas that are now more exposed...Is there a treatment I can put on the subarmalis to help prevent sweat from doing too much damage? Could I coat the thing in an oil, notunlike the natural oil in say a wool Paenula? I don't want to broil inside the armor, but I don't want to have it dripping with sweat after a few hours of use either. 
 
thanks as always for all of your help and suggestions 
valette 
-ANDY

Hibernicus · 04-10-2004, 05:58 PM

My suggestions.... 
Chuck the machine oil, the WD-40, the cotton gloves 
 
Get yourself some pumice, grind it up in a mortar very very fine. 
Get yourself some nut oil or palm oil 
Make a paste with the pumice and oil 
Use a sea sponge or a hunk of felted wool as a buffing pad. 
Have at it.. 
 
Keep your seg heavily oiled OR waxed then oiled 
 
If you put the seg in the sun it'll warm up enough to allow you to rub beeswax directly onto the plates. The wax'll flow, sort of like using a brick of butter to oil a pan. With some some practice you'll achieve a nice even coating. 
 
Or just use beeswax in the arm pits and the inside 
 
Wear an oiled leather vest over the subarmalis. This is very effective in keeping the sweat away from the inside... OR... don't worry about it. After a few months of regular use the inside wil achieve a nice brown patina that's very very rust resistant. 
 
If you must use paint use something like Rustoleum aluminum colored paint, not black. The aluminum color makes it very difficult to see the paint. . 
 
 
Hibernicus

04-10-2004, 09:00 PM

Andy, 
 
Definately paint the inside black with a flat black oil base paint if it isn't black already. Use a brush to get around the straps and other do-dads if you have to. 
 
I've experimented with a lot of different oils and compounds to try and keep my segmentata rust free. Know what I found works the best??? Vaseline. Yep...I actually walked around for a full day in a down pour last year at Roman days with my armour vaselined up and not one spec of rust. Now, in this case I left it on, because of the rain. Normally, I wipe it down before putting it on for an event. Then, when it goes back on the armour stand, it gets another coat of vaseline. The good thing is that the vaseline is safe on the steel, brass and leather. No corrosion build ups, nothing. It also won't dissipitate like some oils will. 
 
To remove rust, scotch brite pads work very well (modern day pumice me thinks). And they preserve the satin finish on the metal. 
 
Good luck! Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Hibernicus · 04-10-2004, 09:28 PM

...plunk+plink... 
 
Egads! 
 
WD-40?? 
 
Gad-zooks! 
 
Vaseline???? 
 
Zounds!! 
 
Scotchbrite pads! 
 
Holy Lubricants Batman! 
 
Ok, I know we don't really know if segs were forged blued, burnished to a satin finish or even tinned... and we've had a delightful time discussing the worthiness of each theory... but come on.... is that scented vaseline or generic petroleum jelly??... at least ya ought ta use rust prevention methods that are at least in imitation of what was likely used... 
 
These are the exact same arguments guys in the SCA use.. the much lambasted SCA.. the raked over the coals SCA... the anti-historical SCA... 
 
".. and if they'd've had vaseline they would've used it!" 
 
ARGHH!!! 
 
By the way, you can get authentic horsehair "scotchbrite pads" from just about any furniture refinishing business.. antique chairs are often stuffed with it... and these places toss it away. 
 
If you believe that the historical armor was burnished bare iron then deal with the obvious historical problems that go hand in hand with it in an historical manner. 
 
A Roman soldier with cotton gloves and vaseline... (insert "sarcastic snort" audio emoticons here).. 
 
sigh... 
 
Hibernicus

04-11-2004, 01:57 AM

That's quite hypocritical coming from you Sean, considering the fact that some of your reconstructed pieces of equipment use not only improperly made modern brassware, but ones that hardly resemble actual roman fittings. I'm talking about your belt components. Other items of your gear has had raised eyebrows as well. A good example being your "Loculus". Trajan's column shows it being flat, with no side pieces, or "gores". But I guess you brush off historical accuracy where you see fit, and add 3 inch gores. So before you go preaching, at least I can wipe the vaseline off. You're stuck with your "thrift shop" belt parts and other " modern modifications". 
 
<insert sneering roman emoticon here.> Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, CanadaEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 4/11/04 4:02 am

04-11-2004, 09:31 AM

Speaking as an armourer and not a reenactor now, I always paint the insides of my armour with rustoleum semi-gloss black and use Nu-Finish paste wax on the outside. It works like a charm.

Hibernicus · 04-11-2004, 12:52 PM

"That's quite hypocritical...improperly made modern brassware, ..hardly resemble actual roman fittings. I'm talking about your belt components." 
 
"D" style buckle?...Puchased domed elements for plates and danglium rivets? ...Drawer pull as dinglium? .... Yeah, we have some old stuff "hanging" around. (I've seen an illustration of a high domed belt plate.. I'll see if I can find it.....) You ought to see what we DON'T use! We've learned a great deal over the last decade. Try to share as much of that knowledge as we can.... I personally hate seeing guys make the same mistakes I made.... You should have seen some of our first seg fittings! Atrocious! You ought to see some of our first pilum.... precision made, no tooling marks.. OHMIGAWD!.. made with a grinder.. eww-yuck! 
 
I sometimes wish it was just me and a couple of guys... My personal kit would be PERFECT and complete.. but, we have 12 segs on the bench in southern California right now, a couple for customers, the rest for Legio IXers.... plus a list of projects.... HUGE LISt.... 1- 4 fabrica per week at my place, busy.... too busy.... I don't know when I'm going to be able to get around to making new caliga for myself... I gave the last two pair to new guys... 
 
At least I can brag that the kit for our newer guys is far better (more accurate) than mine... far better. 
 
"Other items of your gear has had raised eyebrows as well. A good example being your "Loculus". Trajan's column shows it being flat, with no side pieces, or "gores". " 
 
Old gear. Besides, that's my Centurio Loculus.. gotta have room for reports, maps, soldier rolls, the bribes common soldiers pay me to get out of duty. 
 
And, as we all know, Trajan's column is NOT a source for details. If it was we'd be wearing BenHur and Spartacus and Gladiator style segs. 
 
Besides, the idea for insert panels did not originate with me. 
 
We also added something new to our loculuses, something that does not appear in any sculpture, but something that is used on other gear.... pics later. 
 
"But I guess you brush off historical accuracy where you see fit," 
 
That's not even remotely true. As the wsie man once said: "Bad form." 
 
"...at least I can wipe the vaseline off." 
 
I hope you do. That's the point. 
 
This is the point... No one who supports the theory of burnished steel should be using modern tools and materials to keep their Kit rust free. Support the thesis in practice. 
 
Hibernicus

Hibernicus · 04-11-2004, 01:28 PM

We've also raised our own bar 
Toot toot. 
 
We no longer buys sheared steel strips for segs.... we used to order two to four 4'X10' sheets of CR steel sheared to varying widths... so many at 2.25" so many at 3" etc... Now we use hand shears to cut the steel... this creates a slightly uneven edge. The guys are strongly encouraged to hammer the seg steel... leaving tooling marks. Our leather papilio are being made with goatskin, most of our loculuses are also goatskin. We do not use laser cut or machine stamped fittings. Many show tooling and casting marks. None are precise replicas of each other. We've started making our own hobnails (mine are iron) and copper alloy seg rivets. Our new scutums are being made with wood strips and horse hide glue, not plywood. We're rebuilding / refurbishing many commercial gladius scabbards that are falling apart after use.. making them simpler and plainer. We're forging our own entrenchment tools, some from IRON. We're building a seg from iron and tent stakes from iron. The women are handspinning wool and linen. The handspun linen's for the next goatskin papilio. We're building drop weight looms. We're making tools so we can make tools. We shun power tools whenever we can. You oughta try burnishing the embedded pitted rust off a seg with oily pumice and a sea sponge! There's tons and tons more. Tons. 
 
toot toot 
 
Hibernicus

Hibernicus · 04-11-2004, 01:53 PM

toot 
 
Oh yeah and another thing... We like Kit that looks used.. dirt is cool, a bit of rust is okay, pitting is okay, dings, dents, scratches, repairs, weapon damage.. Make a nice laminated strip scutum coverd in goatskin handpainted with historical paints and then thrash it with a sword!... faded tunics, torn knees in feminalia... and we LOVE tooling marks.. ..some of our Kit lives outside to give it a chance to weather naturally, to look like Kit that's been on the march for weeks and weeks.. some of our segs are beat all to hades from mock combat and that is most excellent... soldiers with all sorts of stuff hanging off their Kit such as small knives strapped to the galdius balteus... sometimes I think the Kit looks its best when we march off the mock combat field, Kit covered in dust, dented, dinged, shoulder plates hanging off or missing!, faces blackend with sweaty dust, rust forming on seg plates from water dripping off of focale and beards, tunics dripping with sweat.. ...ever wring out a subarmalis to see how much sweat you can get out of it before hanging up in the sun to dry so you can wear it the third or fourth day in a row? Repainting scutums, or at least parts of them, a few times each year to hide the battle damage.. oops the new red paint doesn't match the old sun faded red paint. There's more. 
 
toot 
 
Hibernicus

04-11-2004, 02:25 PM

So does all of these new improvements then come along with your fantastic theory of blued and blackened segmentata? 
 
Quite honestly I'm glad you've made all the above mentioned improvements. But the bottom line is this. You run your unit how you see fit, I'll do the same with mine. If you don't agree with how someone else is conducting the business of their unit you can say so without sounding like an episode of Beevis and Butthead. Not that I mind...I find your humour funny. But leave me and my vaseline alone damn you! Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, CanadaEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 4/11/04 4:30 pm

Gashford · 04-11-2004, 02:41 PM

Hello all 
 
A while ago I made a shield boss. After the boss planished and heat treated I set about it wit a file to get the few divets it had picked up. 
 
After that using various sands and oils and a lot of time it was ground to a very nice close to mirror finish. 
 
After the finish was as good as I wanted it to be (better than matt, but not fully mirrored, this is a personal choice, using sands, grits and oils it is more than achievable to get a mirror finish with iron or high carbon steel) I took some pure warm bees wax, still solid but only just and coated the boss and left it for about two hours. 
 
Using a linen cloth and some time I stroked the wax away going in the same way as the motions I had made with the oils and sand. After this I repeated the wax process a number of times until the boss was bak to its near mirror like finish. 
 
I have not cleaned this boss in 18 months, except once where I gave it a dust with a rag and it is still near mirror finish. 
 
The back was left rough with the iron flakes and dirt from the forge after quenching, no rust there at all. 
 
So near melted bees wax (sun melted), time, elbow grease and patience will look after your armour. 
 
If you can't be bothered to wait for the wax to melt double pot melt it and add to it 1 part surgical spirits to 3 parts wax and that will act as a platiciser for those not patient enough to wait, but you will smell. Olive oil might also do the job, but I haven't done that yet, I will let you know when time allows. 
 
Hope this helps.

Hibernicus · 04-11-2004, 04:26 PM

Magnus "Butthead" Matt: "So does all of these new improvements then come along with your fantastic theory of blued and blackened segmentata?" 
 
Not my theory.. I just promote it. Theory from Dr. Jim Hrisoulas. 
 
The fact, logic and rationale for blued iron armor is irrefutable.... the theory that Segs were left that way is infinitely arguable... we've proven that here many times! 
 
Gaius "Beavis" Hibernicus

04-11-2004, 05:43 PM

Is beeswax expensive? I was told to use that on my rawhide shield rims. A good idea, considering most of our events get rained on. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Hibernicus · 04-11-2004, 06:10 PM

Price can vary greatly! Shop around. 
 
There's also a difference between dark and light beeswax. The dark works better. 
 
1lb cakes available at most large craft stores and tend to be better priced than from a candle making supply store. 
 
Some serious artist/craftsman supply stores have 5lb blocks.. that's a lot of beeswax but its less expensive than 1lb at a time 
 
Hibernicus

04-11-2004, 09:19 PM

Ave! 
 
I'd also look in your local paper. If you've got beekeepers in your area, they tend to sell their honey in the classifieds,and you can always call them up and ask if they would sell the beeswax, too. A friend of mine's mother does this. Of course, this is the same friend of mine who made me my new helmet, so he hardly lets her part with any! 
 
Uale! 
 
Britannicus

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