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What attracts you to Late Rome?
Yeah, I still think Aetius introduced the Lance-and-Bow tactics to the Roman Army through his use of Huns and Alans.
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Quote:Yeah, I still think Aetius introduced the Lance-and-Bow tactics to the Roman Army through his use of Huns and Alans.

I believe the "big change" in the Roman cavalry began shortly after Adrianople. Yet we find sayahs for Hunnic-styled bows in the early 3rd century. Gratian pulled 30,000 Alans into the western ranks, and Theodosius recruited 40,000 Goths. I'd say the late 4th century cavalry wasn't even recognizable to a Republican! :grin:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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I understand that, I'm just saying I think that the "Roman" cavalry adopted these tactics under Aetius, not just Cavalry units recruited from the Barbari.
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Gotcha. But I'm saying there's a high chance the Sarmato-Alanic tactics were incorporated prior to Aetius, while the Hunnic element came later and during the Aetian period.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
That is a good point. What distinguished the Sarmatio-Alanic methods from Hunnic methods though? I know both had asymmetric bows, but why did the Huns overpower the Alans then?
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I believe the Alans (and I'm including the Roxolani and Aorsi [aka Alanorsi]) relied too heavily on the cataphract and contus-- harking back to the days when they were known as the Massagetae. The Huns out-maneuverd them. Quick crack-shots with the bow. Also, the Alans were "tamer," more civilized after contact with the Chinese, the Sogdians, and Bactrians, and then the Crimean sedentaries. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
So Romanization overtook the nomads' lifestyle, causing them to settle down?

A viable solution, but we still don't know where the Huns came from. If the Alans had contact all the way from Rome to china and south to Bactria and Sogdiana, then that doesn't leave a lot of space for other groups.

Could the Huns have been an internal rebellion within the greater Alanic group? I always believed the Huns were a predominately Turkish with a Mongolian/Finno-Ugrian mix. So if they appeared it would have been right in the center of the Alanic territorial influence probably. Internal collapse and an overthrow would be plausible, but i dont know if there is any evidence to back something like that.
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Quote:So Romanization overtook the nomads' lifestyle, causing them to settle down?


Hello, Evan

Yup. The Alans and Taifali were settled in Italy and France, eventually becoming sedentary but they disappeared into the Euro-mix by the 7th century. More Alans went into Spain with the Vandals, then on to Africa. Another group of Alans settled in the Caucacus and became known as the Osseti, while an Eastern group (30,000) had settled in China opposite the isle of Formosa.


Quote:A viable solution, but we still don't know where the Huns came from. If the Alans had contact all the way from Rome to china and south to Bactria and Sogdiana, then that doesn't leave a lot of space for other groups.


We know exactly where the Huns came from-- the Northeast-- and the reason the First Emperor, Chi'-in, built the Great Wall. They were recorded as the "Xiong-nu" by Sima Qian (Records of the Grand Historian, Han Dynasty Vol. II) Sima Qian also mentions the two tribes who were "friendly" to the Emperors-- the Yu-chi (Kushans) who were chased by the Huns from the Takla Makan to Ferghana... and another large tribe, the Wusun (Saka proto-Alans), living in the Ili River Valley. The Huns spoke a different language (mostly Turkic)and had a totally different culture and art-forms than the Wusun. Thus the big rift, as the powerful (and growing) Hunnic confederation pushed Indo-European speaking tribes ever westward, northwest actually. The Saka-Massagetae confederation fell into decline as a new super alliance was formed as the "Alans." This coincides with the migrations that started in the 2nd century BC and continued for centuries.

Originally, the Kushans and Wusun were semi-nomadic, living in yurts or even log houses. By the time they arrived beyond the Roman sphere, they were in the migration mode and living in wagons. This is how Ammianus Marcellinus recorded them. But Sima Qian speaks of a Wusun "court," and the kings were given a number of Chinese princesses as wives. Even nobles far below the kings, such as jade and horse traders, married Chinese women. This is why we see the "Asiatic admixture" within Sarmatian burials, often as high as 30% in some cemetaries. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
That's very interesting, and although I think the xiongnu had a part to play in the formation of the Huns, I still don't think the huns were directly related to them.

What's interesting though is the co-relation between Chinese, Roman, and Sassanid records about the area around the Aral sea and the migrations taking place in central asia.
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Quote:That's very interesting, and although I think the xiongnu had a part to play in the formation of the Huns, I still don't think the huns were directly related to them.

What's interesting though is the co-relation between Chinese, Roman, and Sassanid records about the area around the Aral sea and the migrations taking place in central asia.

Yes, there are discrepencies in the art and traditions of the Xiong-nu and the Huns, but there are many likenesses as well-- archery-based fighting style, same basic customs, high Asiantic incidence of physicality, and "high king" structure in their cultures. Same goes for the Saka-Massagetae shift to Wusun-Alani. We are looking at almost 4 centuries of slow change from China to the Aral steppe.

But as you note, the chronological histories of the Chinese, Persians, and Romans, follow these tribes precisely as they restructure themselves into the "terrible hoards" that reach the Danube. Wink
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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