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Bronze Lorica Segmentata
#31
Page 8, 'Dressed for the Ocassion. Clothes and Context in the Roman Army' by Michael Speidel, from 'Wearing the Cloak. Dressing the Soldier in Roman Times'

Quote:"...On the whole, therefore, soldiers wearing full armour must have been a much rarer sight than suggested by the images on gravestones and other monuments, let alone Hollywood productions or most documentaries on television. And even if soldiers were clad in armour, it might not have been obvious from afar, as weapons and armour were often hidden by protective coverings and coats."
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#32
So, Ive found very good book about Dacians, by Hadrian Daicoviciu and there are many theories about artists who produces Traian´s column. It is possibble, acoording to some historians, that the sculpotrs could be presented in Dacia with Trajan and his army, depicting soldiers and country for any possible official monument.
And when we have talked about this special kind of LS (without two breast pates), this kind of armour is not showed only on Trajans column, but also in monuments of Marcus Aurelius age (his column, Portonaccio sarcophagus, frieze on Constatnine arch) and we can be sure that artist of that age really saw soldiers in Italy, since Marcus Aurelius created 2 legions of Italians and barbarians invaded Italy in this period (they destroyed Italian city of Opitergium-Oderzo). And as I said, all the official (and not only) monuments are stylized but based on reality.
Massimiliano Fedel
Classical Archaeology, Roman military Archaeology, Roman provincial Archaeology, Archaeology of Aquileia
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#33
F. MAXIMILIANVS ITALICVS you have a PM about adding your real name.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#34
Quote:So, Ive found very good book about Dacians, by Hadrian Daicoviciu and there are many theories about artists who produces Traian´s column. It is possibble, acoording to some historians, that the sculpotrs could be presented in Dacia with Trajan and his army, depicting soldiers and country for any possible official monument.

Sure, anything's possible, but are there any accounts in any of the Roman primary sources of artists travelling with armies to capture reference for monuments, ever?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#35
we know about architect Apollodoros in Trajan´s army, but we dont know about sculptors...
Massimiliano Fedel
Classical Archaeology, Roman military Archaeology, Roman provincial Archaeology, Archaeology of Aquileia
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#36
Quote:So, Ive found very good book about Dacians, by Hadrian Daicoviciu
That book was written half a century ago. I haven't read it but it probably isn't the best source for studying Trajan's column or learning about the Dacii.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#37
Yes of course, there are many new informations from archaeology about Dacians, but in history and art theories arent so changed. If we take just this part then this book isnt wrong.
Massimiliano Fedel
Classical Archaeology, Roman military Archaeology, Roman provincial Archaeology, Archaeology of Aquileia
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#38
We have, indeed, been over this topic many times before.

Robinson's comment on the possibility of leather armour just about sums it up for me: to be effective it would have to be too heavy to wear, besides which, when wet (soldiers don't get wet?) its weight could almost double and it would then loose all its structural strength. I suppose it is possible that some very poor soldiers might have opted for 'protection' of this type, but I doubt that this would apply to legionary soldiers, who were paid a fair wack for what they did.

There are issues about what exactly the sculptors of the Trajanic column and the Adamklissi were trying to show. You can extend this to the reliefs on the Arch of Constantine (pinched - in part - from an earlier monument of Marcus Aurelius), the column of Marcus, the base of the column of Septimius Severus, the 'Great Trajanic Frieze' and some carved sarcophagae. Apart from indicating that they were describing 'legionary' soldiers to the public (as opposed to auxiliaries, i.e. non-citizens), it may well just have been a case of 'close-enough-is-good-enough'. We do the same thing today - we make sketches (cartoons if you like) which contain the salient features of something or someone by which we can recognise them. It doesn't have to be pin-point accurate. A soldier shown wearing banded armour is recognisable as wearing lorica segmentata, even if that representation isn't anything like 100% accurate. It does not, therefore, follow that these representations showed actual examples of sub-types of this iron armour. To date all examples that have been found conform to only three types: Kalkriese, Corbridge and Newstead, with a possible fourth type in the composite Alba-Julia form (which may yet have turned up in Leon, Spain).

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#39
Hello Mike

By Robinson's comment I presume you mean in his book 'The Armour of Imperial Rome', because in his book 'Oriental Armour' he mentions the use of leather armour several times, It seems like he was saying it was OK for Eastern and Oriental armies to use leather armour but not the Western Roman Army. In one case leather was fine in the other it was useless!

The argument also ignores the leather armour that was used by the Romans such as the Lamellar fragment and the horse armour. As you are also well aware there can be several examples which can be cited from other eras of leather defences. I am wary of using the term 'armour' as it upsets Dan. leather protection need not be too thick and it can be waterproofed and it is not always cheap.

I think the real point is whether the Romans had leather lorica segmentata or leather musculata and on that point I am equally doubtful.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#40
Agreed with pretty much everything Graham said. :?
There is no doubt that armour has been made from leather/hide in various times and places and seems to have been effective. There are a few examples that come from a possible Roman context such as Dura Europos and Karanis. There is nothing to suggest that Romans ever made segmented or solid cuirasses from leather/hide. The vast majority of leather/hide armour from all over the world from around 2000 BC onwards, including the Roman possibilities, is scale/lamellar. Personally I don't think that Romans wore leather armour but it depends on how you define "Roman". Is an Egyptian soldier using Egyptian equipment serving in Egypt under Roman occupation considered a Roman auxilliary? Is his armour Roman or Egyptian?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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