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Please, does anybody know about the name of the article by Vagalinsky published in Archaeologia Bulgarica 1999-1, which talks about the bronze fragment of LS of type Corbridge A? I need it for my work and need complet citation.
Btw this is very interesting issue, so we can discuss about it. This found is also mentioned by D´Amato (arms of the Roman soldier from Marius to Commodus) when he published his theories, and also notes that bronze version is also dipicted in Domus Aurea frescos of soldier.
Massimiliano Fedel
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Quote:Please, does anybody know about the name of the article by Vagalinsky published in Archaeologia Bulgarica 1999-1, which talks about the bronze fragment of LS of type Corbridge A? I need it for my work and need complet citation.
Btw this is very interesting issue, so we can discuss about it. This found is also mentioned by D´Amato (arms of the Roman soldier from Marius to Commodus) when he published his theories, and also notes that bronze version is also dipicted in Domus Aurea frescos of soldier.
This reference is confused (volume 3 of Archaeologia Bulgarica is 1999 and there is no article listed on segmentata by Vagalinsky there). There is however in that same volume 'Gentscheva, E.: Neue Angaben bezüglich des Militarlagers von Novae im Unterdonaubecken aus der früheren Kaiserzeit No1' but since I can't get access to the journal I can't tell whether V. has a note on the 'segmentata' in there.
We've been over this before and his interpretation of the bronze armour sounds like armguard fragments from Novae which have already been published by the Poles so, for the time being, copper-alloy segmentata remains a myth.
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Thank you very much mr. Bishop for your useful answer. I´m student of classical archaelogy and I´m working about Lorica Segmentata for my bachelor work. I´m really very glad that I found you here, since I read and like very much your works about roman army.
When we talked about D´Amato and his theory about leather LS, personally I don´t belive that something like that really existed. I think there is no sence to produce a laminate cuirass made of leather. What advantages could have leather segments?
But in the other hand (it´s just my hypotesis) there were other types of LS portrayed on monuments like Traian´s column, some of here portrayed types we can compare to Newstead LS, but there are also another types portrayed there, like this one, where the breast plates are missing, or type which imitates muscle cuirass (something like commanders type of l. squamata used during the 3rd cent.). So I think, some of these types could really existed.
Thanks,
Max
Massimiliano Fedel
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Do you have a picture of the LS on which the breast plates are missing?
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Hello, you can find them in M. Bishop´s publication about Lorica segmentata. There are all the types of Ls portrayed on Trajan´s column.
I
ve found this ilustration based on Trajan´s column:
http://www.romancoins.info/segmentata-re...ct-mcb.gif
this is from Marcus Aurelius´ column: http://www.legionsix.org/Equipment/Basic...age005.jpg
And reconstructions:
http://medievalcostumesandgifts.com/imag...0b_amz.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31zB3pk2l1L.jpg
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It´s just modern reconstruction, but I belive this kind could really existed. Why would the sculptor create this "artistic" type of LS if he just created a LS who corresponds to archaeological finds? Maybe some of excavated plates which we think were part of Corbridge backplates were in reality these breast plates.
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In order to follow that line of argument you'd first have to demonstrate that the entire sculpture was done by one artist.
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Hmm, good comment, but there is one freeze on Trajan´s column whith soldiers building a fort. Two of the soldiers there, wear "standard" type of LS, while other two have this strange LS with horizontal breast plates. So I dont think that two sculptors would create one freeze and if so they would use same common method. Im sorry but I can´t find freeze.
Massimiliano Fedel
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I´ve found just this small version of my freeze, maybe you know it or can find it.
http://o.quizlet.com/NYROl63o3tbse04NpP5-RQ_m.jpg
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If you want armour representations that are more likely to be accurate, look at the Adamklissi Metopes (no segs, though). Trajan's Column being in Rome, Italy, the sculptors probably never saw a real legionary wearing armour in their lives.
The numerous plates that you propose being on the chest makes the legionary's chest more vulnerable. I haven't seen found upper shoulder guard plates about 2cm wide, either.
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Yea, thats true that it could be much more vunerable, but the same thing we can see on backplates development. On Kalkriese and Corbridge types backplates were 6 while on Newstead just 2, so I think we can see development of this dearth also here. So something simmilar could happened also with chest plates.
Of course provincial art is much more credible, but we also have provincial art when LS is showed, and about Adamclissi monument there are many confussions, like why LS is totally missing there?? It is clear that roman legions used this armour during Dacian wars.
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Quote:Yea, thats true that it could be much more vunerable, but the same thing we can see on backplates development.
How and why would they fight the enemy facing backwards? We have an account of an elderly Roman boasting of his battle scars being all on the front of his body, proud of the fact that none were facing the rear.
Quote:On Kalkriese and Corbridge types backplates were 6 while on Newstead just 2, so I think we can see development of this dearth also here. So something simmilar could happened also with chest plates.
The Newstead type had a completely different fastening method, which relied on a vertically fastened pin. This would leave less vertical space for multiple fastenings of that type on the back if the Newstead had six plates, therefore more chance of pins coming undone, compared to horizontal leather straps and buckles on Corbridge and Kalkriese types.
Quote:Of course provincial art is much more credible, but we also have provincial art when LS is showed, and about Adamclissi monument there are many confussions, like why LS is totally missing there?? It is clear that roman legions used this armour during Dacian wars.
They may have been auxilia?
The upper back also deforms and is more flexible than the chest. Okkam's Razor points to the more flexible six-plate assembly being on the back.
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I just meant that ty same system of plates as was used for backplates could be used also for chest plates. Unfortunatly we dont have any provincial monument showing complet LS as we have on Trajan´s column. But also when we are talking about less value on official monuments, it still seems unlogical that one sculptor would create two different types of armour on one freeze, if we clearly know one of these types really existed. Of course details like narrow shoulder plates or also small sized shields are just artistic point of view, but it has its historical base.
Hmmm don´t think Adamclissi monument shows auxilas. Shields of the soldiers are typical for legionaries, and also Goldsworthy talks about legionaries on this monument. Then, on Adamclissi monuments there are soldiers considered as auxilaries, for their oval shields. And as Morel, one art historian notes, sculptors of this monuments were soldiers (from legions), so they would like to show themself, or mainly legionaries as Romans and after that all the other collaborators (auxilas)
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Quote:I just meant that ty same system of plates as was used for backplates could be used also for chest plates.
In that case, where did the two larger plates that everyone believes to be chest plates go?
Quote:it still seems unlogical that one sculptor would create two different types of armour on one freeze, if we clearly know one of these types really existed.
None of the Trajan Column types of seg have been found, just like the archetypal officer attic helmets, as seen on your photo of the Marcus Aurelius Column. Both columns are in Rome which means the sculptors had probably never even seen actual segmentata on an actual legionary.
Quote:Of course details like narrow shoulder plates or also small sized shields are just artistic point of view, but it has its historical base.
Or the sculptors just followed an established formula. The friezes were for the citizenry, not the military, so it's highly unlikely that they were ever intended to be in ay way accurate, so long as a citizen would realize the difference between legionaries and auxilia.
Quote:And as Morel, one art historian notes, sculptors of this monuments were soldiers (from legions),
The sculptural style is typical of provincial artesans. It's discussed in a paper, which I can't remember the title or author of.
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