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Update on 1st Century Sarmatian Weapons
#16
Found one on E-Bay with almost the same slide as the illustration

[attachment=6472]T2eC16hHJHIE9nysfplSBQRsnDHZZw60_57.JPG[/attachment]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...5082wt_952

Would this type of blade be ok for a Sarmatian Sword?


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TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#17
Thanks Alanus. I thought it was lamellar too, but was trying to work out a plate size / shape / hole config. The Terracotta Army / Han dynasty is probably a good bet. Hmmmm, not sure why your comment didn't appear - FB can be rather stroppy sometimes! Cheers :-)

On the sword, so far I have rather used silk cord instead of cotton. Mostly because I had silk cord lying around, and it's shinier :mrgreen:
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#18
Silk cord?
Nothing wrong with that. Sarmatians and Huns had access to silk. It'll make for a "posh" sword. :-P
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#19
Quote:
Vindex post=330456 Wrote:We do care! I am intrigued by the scabbard slide and how far down the scabbard it is placed (illustration 1)

I'm intigued with that particular placement, too. The sword beside it appears to have the slide positioned correctly. Maybe, this is archaeological error. Quite often, too, we see Type 1 grip areas shown too short. These were two-handed swords. Here is a photo of the sword hanging at the angle shown on the Orlat placque

:-)

Regarding the scabbard slide placement. I have somewhere seen an illustration of a Chinese warrior carrying a long sword across his back. The sacbbard slide goes though the waist belt at the centre of the back with the hilt at shoulder height.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#20
Conal,

Thanks for reminding me of that. Some Sarmatians were also buried with the Type 1 sword at their back, not just at the (usual) left side. So perhaps the locations of the scabbard slides varied, as you noted, depending on how and where the sword was carried. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#21
Quote:Conal,

Thanks for reminding me of that. Some Sarmatians were also buried with the Type 1 sword at their back, not just at the (usual) left side. So perhaps the locations of the scabbard slides varied, as you noted, depending on how and where the sword was carried. Smile

I have in my mins eyena charioteer, I will scour my web downloads to see if I kept a copy.

This has a parallel i pr-Roman Britain as some scabbards had a centrally mounted belt loop and there are figurines showing back mounted swords... Did the Sarmations have any history of chariots?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#22
Quote:This has a parallel i pr-Roman Britain as some scabbards had a centrally mounted belt loop and there are figurines showing back mounted swords... Did the Sarmations have any history of chariots?

back to you, Conal

History's first chariots show up around 2,000 BC at Sintashta, on the northern side of the steppes. It's generally considered the Sintashta culture evolved into the Indo-Europeans, as the Yu-chi, Altic and Tian Shan Saka, and Massagetae, moved south and east. The chariots were abandoned long before the Sarmatians appeared, although they were adopted by the Persians, Greeks, Celts, and Chinese. The Saka became a horse-riding military-based society, and from them descended the Sarmatians and Wusun-Alans.

Certainly looks like back-mounted swords were prevelent across the whole stretch from China to Britain. However, the majority of scabbards with slides appear to be worn from a waist belt. Simonenko shows the setup, and it's exactly as I had rigged mine before discovering the new illustrations. The leather stap passes through the slide around itself, and makes for adjustability. Here are a few photos:


[attachment=6493]akinakesequipmentbelt006-1.jpg[/attachment]


[attachment=6494]wusuncavalrysword006.JPG[/attachment]

This style of attachment allows the sword to hang exactly like those pictured on the Orlat placque, less angled than the way the Chinese wore them. Confusedmile:


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#23
Alanus, Have you ever read "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in Asia" by William Trousdale? It is seems to have some good info as well. My apologies if it has already been mentioned.
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#24
Quote:Alanus, Have you ever read "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in Asia" by William Trousdale? It is seems to have some good info as well. My apologies if it has already been mentioned.

No! It hasn't been mentioned. I just gave you a "thank you" for posting it. There has been so little written on Sarmatian weapons, that Trousdale could be a valuable resource. Is the book still in print?
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#25
Quote:Regarding the scabbard slide placement. I have somewhere seen an illustration of a Chinese warrior carrying a long sword across his back. The sacbbard slide goes though the waist belt at the centre of the back with the hilt at shoulder height.

I don't suppose you've remembered where you saw the illustration yet, have you?
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#26
In regards to the book "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in China" by William Trousdale. It is available to read or download from the link below.
http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontrib...A-0017.pdf
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#27
Michael!

I'd give you 2 "Thank yous" for posting the above link, but Jasper only allows one. Confusedilly:

I just downloaded it, and took a quick read. More to digest later.
Truesdale is a good source; and what we are seeing is a great collection of slides from every corner of the steppes. I especially like Truesdale's expression, "Tien peoples." Wonder who they could have been? (nuk, nuk, nuk) This puts the whole thing in place, as the scabbard slides branch out from the Han to the Yu-chi and Wusun (sometimes spelled Usun by the Russians), then northwest, and finally into Syria and the Roman Empire.

The great thing about these slides, the scabbards, and the swords themselves, is that a reenactor can order a custom one from a reputable Chinese swordmaker and get something reasonably accurate to the Type 1 sword and its acctraments. ;-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#28
Hello Alanus,

Are you sure the ring is indeed a thumb ring? A thumb ring this early in the west would be sensational :woot: , so I immeadiately sent it to Bede Dwyer (you wil probably know him, but if not, Google him because he has lots of interesting stuff to say on archery) but he did not believe it was a thumb ring Cry . I very much want it to be a thumb ring, but on the other hand in matters of archery, I respect Bede's authority 8) . I see you are an archer. Have you tried making something like this to test it out?
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#29
Helo Alanus,

Are you sure the ring is indeed a thumb ring? A thumb ring this early in the west would be sensational :woot: , so I immeadiately sent it to Bede Dwyer (you wil probably know him, but if not, Google him because he has lots of interesting stuff to say on archery) but he did not believe it was a thumb ring Cry . I very much want it to be a thumb ring, but on the other hand in matters of archery, I respect Bede's authority 8) . I see you are an archer. Have you tried making something like it to test it out?
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#30
Hello, Eduard

The picture of the thumb rings in the first post of this thead are from Simonenko.

Here's more info from him (p.292), "In the graves near Porohi and nearby Pisarevka (the second half of the 1st-- beginning of the 2nd century AD), the gold plaque for defending the wrist from the string's stroke (fig. 70) and bronze finger ring for the Mongolian release (fig. 71) were found. The plaque from Porohi is unique to the Sarmatians; rings are known in the Middle Ages but for the first time it was found in a Sarmatian grave."

Simonenko then mentions that depictions of thumb rings, plus half a thumb ring, have been found at Duro Europa.

I don't have a thumb ring. But I'd be willing to try one since it might be easier on my fingers... which are no longer young. 8)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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