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04-05-2004, 07:50 PM

Are there any modern pick-axes that will double for a roman dolabra, perhaps with minimal modification? For example, one that could be bought at Home Depot or something. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

scythius · 04-05-2004, 08:12 PM

The problem, in my opinion, is that most of the tools that are the right shape, are cast. A fairly easy way to minimize the jarring look of the cast metal is to grind the entire surface to remove all visible evidence of the sand-casting process. 
 
This will make it look better, but still not quite 'right'. 
 
HISPANA does have a number of exactly these items. 
 
A better source would be flee markets and yard sales (cheaper, too!) 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

scythius · 04-05-2004, 08:15 PM

Let me also add that the Deepeeka dolabra probably shouldn't ever be actually used as a tool. We've broken the HEADS of two of the damn things during one of our trenching drills. 
 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

Hibernicus · 04-06-2004, 02:03 AM

Modern trenching tools.. we comb thrift shops and swap meets for tools that can be made into roman tools, as Scythius stated with some grinding and with some reforging... 
 
Another prob with modern tools is the shape of the handle hole.. most Roman tools that I've seen seem to have roundish holes. Many modern tools have square or ovoid holes. 
 
Deepeeka dolabra.. a great show item.. never use it to do any actual digging... the pick end will split, even roll over! .. made of two layers of steel, sandwiched together.. they seem to be welded along the outside edge and not forge welded together... 
 
We've started to forge our own dolabra.... lots more satisfying! 
 
Hibernicus

04-06-2004, 02:17 AM

Thanks guys. I'll keep my eyes open. I'm not a stranger to grinding metal....interesting point on the handle hole. 
 
They're a darn cool item though! Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Matthew Amt · 04-06-2004, 01:22 PM

I used to look at old tools, too, but there are just some little subtle differences that aren't worth the effort, to me. I was toying with trying a WWI or WWII British entrenching tool for the Roman equivalent, though it has a narrow "neck" between socket and blade which the Roman style lacks... 
 
I also don't really like the look of the Deepeeka dolabra--seems too big (though I'd have to check my sources and measurements), too flat, and too shiny. The Albion dolabra is fabulous, though! I think you mention in another thread that you just got one. 
 
One of my guys got an 18th century (repro) forged shovel from G. Gedney Godwin, which looks great. 
 
Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

scythius · 04-06-2004, 04:56 PM

Matt wrote: 
Quote:<hr>I used to look at old tools, too, but there are just some little subtle differences that aren't worth the effort, to me.<hr> 
 
Yeah, the refitted ones are a stop gap measure. Once we get the time to forge some tools from scratch, the re-worked tools will go the way of the dodo. The shape of the eye (for the handle) is a dead giveaway to tool geeks like me, but I'm willing to fudge a bit for ease in digging until that time. 
 
Hibernicus, are you gonna post our trenching drill pics? 
 
 
 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

04-06-2004, 05:06 PM

Another issue with modern pick-axes is that the axe head and the pick are usually rotated 90 degrees compared to the roman dolabra. Putting it another way, all of the modern pick-axes that I've seen have the axe head perpendicular to the handle, not in-line. No amount of grinding will take care of that. 
 
I have yet to attempt to actually use my Albion dolabra, though I have sharpened it with a stone.

04-06-2004, 05:43 PM

Yeah, your dolabra is damn cool Lee. But I didn't know that Albion was selling them for $50. That's really good, considering the junky deepeeka one is $90 or more. Maybe in june we can hack a few small trees down with it. 
 
I want one now. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Hibernicus · 04-06-2004, 05:50 PM

Neuralmancer: "Another issue with modern pick-axes is that the axe head and the pick are usually rotated 90 degrees compared to the roman dolabra." 
 
The classic dolabra looks like a modern pick/axe, however pick/adze have also been found, even one tool (that I know of) that looks like a shorter straight pick. 
 
Some of the modern examples can be reforged into a classic dolabra.... Another close tool is the eye hoe.... and some flat shovels are easily converted... 
 
As Matt/Quintus said the Deepeeka dolabra truly is way way too shiny, though I've found that the weight works when the tool is reattached to a proper handle. I was a lanscape contractor and dug too many trenches and holes... anyway, we've reforged ours.. let them rust up a bit, heated them, hammered them, blued them, let them get bit rusty again, oiled the heck out of them, one even has a handle with dark pitch on it... We donlt dig with them but when reworked they make good show pieces.... which is why we're making our own. We seem to put as much time in refitting the Deepeeka version as we do in making them. 
 
 
Hibernicus

04-06-2004, 08:19 PM

The Albion Dolabra is terrific and is only $50, and that comes with a really nifty blade sheath too (with jingly bits!). I went to the local Home Depot and bought a sledgehammer handle for $10, sanded most of the varnish off it it, and put it all together. Everyone I show it to is totally impressed, sometimes more impressed with the dolabra than the other sharp pointy things I have! 
 
Although I wonder why you needed to sharpen the Albion blade? Albion sharpens everything they make, or maybe you're referring to the pick end? Anyways. 
 
Now if only Albion would sell their droolable Fulham Gladius for that kind of bargain....Oooooh goodness! 
valette 
ANDY

04-06-2004, 09:19 PM

A few swipes with an oil stone sharpened it up nicely.

Vincula · 04-06-2004, 09:27 PM

Can you explain, for us newbies, what on urth a Deepeeka dolabra is?!

Hibernicus · 04-06-2004, 11:12 PM

A Deepeeka dolabra is a dolabra made by Deepeeka. 
 
From Deepeeka: 
<img src="http://www.armae.com/Photos/accessories/115PSMR103.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
. 
 
The real thing, on example of many: 
<img src="http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de/projekt/12/images/Dolabra.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

Gashford · 04-07-2004, 02:35 PM

hello folks 
 
just a few thoughts on Roman tools based upon some BM finds and books by David Sim. 
 
Most Roman tools are stuck to the handle in a slightly different way to modern tools. Frankly most people won't notice it unless told, I certianly didn't. But once you know it you will spot it everywhere you go. 
 
EVen in teh above example you can see an example of part oft he point. 
 
Modern tools tend to either be slid along the length of the shaft and wedged onto the end ... and possibly secured with a pin driven down the shafts length. 
 
Roman tools however generally seem to have had a tapered socket into which the shaft was set from the end, with a short length of the shaft poking out the top. This protrusion was then used to recieve a pin which was hammered into the shaft lengthwise securing the head to the end. 
 
If you look at the historical head above you can just about spot the taper of the socket, wider at the bottom than at the top ... whereas the Depeeka one is the same width top and bottom. 
 
The above rule holds true of all the blacksmith tools I have seen to date, so presumably it is a good rule of thumb that the other tools they made would follow their trusted masters pieces? 
 
Hope this helps a bit, if I get a chance I will try an draw a piccie of what I mean, it will make mor sense I am sure. 
 
All the best Graham Ashford
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