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03-15-2004, 11:23 AM

Ave, 
 
Some months ago, I think it is almost a year, I posted a thread on making the breast and backplates of a lorica segmentata fit (at the same time). 
 
It seems to be generally accepted that padding makes plates fit correctly. This means without the leathers twisted in a corner and the plates hanging straight on the body. I tried all kinds of thicknesses of padding and tough the result was an improvement, it still didn't look right and didn't satisfy me. It clearly doesn't satisfy some re-enactors either, because I have seen lorica segmentata Corbridge type A reconstructions with mid-collar plates connected to their top back plates straight instead of at an angle. I don't recall of any find suggesting the connection should be straight. 
If you think about it, it is impossible to make a right fit without putting an enormous strain on the hinges. 
 
I made a suggestion to make a right fit without straining the hinges at all and had very positive replies. 
Now I would like to repeat this idea in order to see if this could be the historically right answer to the fitting problem. 
 
I made a twist in the mid-collar plate with the result that both breast and top back plate hang straight, even without any padding. The only visible difference is that the mid-collar plates rise up just a little against the neck. 
 
Is there any evidence of this on the finds at Corbridge? But even if not, the finds at Corbridge were parts not complete armors, so the 'twist' I am suggesting could be made later when building or repairing a segmentata and fitting it to the person that is supposed to wear it. 
 
Does anyone have any similar ideas on this subject and what are the results? 
 
Greetings, 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

03-15-2004, 01:51 PM

Do you have any pictures of this? I'd like to see some, and how the plates hang. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

03-15-2004, 02:47 PM

Magnus, 
 
I haven't made a photo in detail but I'll give some extra info. 
 
When you make a mid-collar plate and you bend it to follow the curve of your shoulder, then you have to take one extra step: take the piece in both hands, at the short sides and twist it like a wet piece of cloth you want to get dry. 
If you hold one side horizontal now, the other end will make an angle. This end must be connected to the back plate. This way both front and back will hang horizontal. 
It is as simple as that. 
 
Greetings, 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

03-15-2004, 03:02 PM

Magnus, 
 
I haven't made a photo in detail, but I'll give some extra info. 
 
When you make a mid-collar plate end you bend it to follow the shape of your shoulder, you have to take one more step: 
Take the plate in both hands at the short sides and give it a twist like if you want to dry wet cloth. 
Now hold one of the short sides horizontal and the other side will show an angle. If you connect the back plate at this side, it will correct the angle and both sides will hang horizontally. It is as simple as that. 
 
Greetings, 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

Hibernicus · 03-15-2004, 03:21 PM

Quintilianus.. 
Another factor to making a seg fit well is proportioning the dimensions of the plates 
 
The vertical dimension of all five of the Collar Plates can vary in order to bring the center point of the Mid Collar Plate into proper alignment such that it becomes centered on the curve of your shoulder. You may need to lengthen the Breastplate say by 1/2" and then shorten the length of the Mid Collar Plate and the Top Back Plate by 1/4" each (or all four of the remaining plats by 1/8").. ..or visa versa, ie: shorten the Breastplate and lengthen the others. 
 
You should also take into considertaion three other dimensions: 
the width of your upper back; 
the width of your chest; 
the width of your shoulder (shoulder point to base of neck) 
 
All these factors combine to determine the dimensions of the Shoulder Plates. Soldier A might have a 48" chest but his shoulder top is only 4" side. Soldier B has the same chest measurement but his shoulder top is 6:" wide. Put the assembled shoulder plates made for Soldier B onto Soldier A and it'll hang on him like a wet towel... torquing hinges and stressing leathers. 
 
Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus, Centurio 
LEGIO IX HISPANA COH III EXPG CEN I HIB 
 
Vexillatio I: Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Camp Pendelton 
Vexillatio II: Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, 
Vexillatio III: Washington, Okinawa , Northern California 
 
www.legio-ix-hispana.org

03-15-2004, 05:16 PM

Hibernicus, 
 
You are absolutely right. there are a lot more factors to make a right fit. But these are a question of measuring, making a model in cardboard, etc.... The problem I want to clear up, is the fact that when you make the breastplates fit, it is impossible to connect the top back plates at the rear and have them hang horizontally. Because when you get them right, then the breastplates will hang at an angle. 
It is the shape of the top back plate that creates this problem. If you make it like the original the problem always occurs. The solution to make that specific fitting problem go away seems to be twisting the mid-collar plate. The big question of course is: Is this what the Romans did?

Hibernicus · 03-15-2004, 05:50 PM

Twisting/torquing the top collar plate.. this what we've been doing for a decade and it works great with minial shoulder padding 
 
I believe that I asked Mike Bishop the question "Did the Romans do this" too many years ago. The answer, I believe, was that the condition of the found shoulder plates was such that it could not be determined. 
 
Certainly a beefy shoulder padding lessens the need for torquing. 
 
Then it becomes a matter of the angle at which the shoulder fitting matched edges are cut and the angle at which the lobate hinges are riveted on. 
 
Hibernicus

03-15-2004, 08:46 PM

Thanks for the clarification Jurgen, I see what you mean perfectly. 
 
My back plates always have a gap...part of the problem was that I spaced the buckles on the girld plates a bit much on my corbridge A. A guy I know told me the gap is only a problem if you're running away. That made me feel better. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

03-16-2004, 09:44 AM

Magnus, 
 
KEEP ON FIGHTING !!! 
 
Greetings? 
 
Jurgen/Quintilianus

03-30-2004, 08:41 PM

Ave, 
On twisting the collar plate, 
Quintilianus asked "Is this what the Romans did?" 
 
Your problem is that you are using flat sheet, bending it in one plane. The originals are forge shaped to the shoulder. They bend front to back, but also slope down to the shape of the shoulder. (Remember, the illustrations you are all copying are flat 2D views) The breast and back plates are also body shaped. When hinged, these hang at the correct angles, without a gap and do not require substantial padding providing they have been made correctly for the intended wearer. Problems of fitting, as previously mentioned, come when trying to wear a lorica made for someone else. If the plates are made to fit the man, using cardboard templates first (remembering that cardboard bends easier than metal, so add a little bit), shaped to the body (which you are simulating slightly by torquing the flat plate) they should hang correctly. Also, fit the hinges to the mid-collar plate first, so that you can make any extra adjustments to the angle of the dangle later. 
 
Does that help any? 
 
Good luck, 
Claudia

04-04-2004, 09:15 PM

Does anyone have pictures of a lorica with properly formed pieces? I'd be interested in seeing one.

Hibernicus · 04-05-2004, 05:06 PM

Ave jsantel 
 
Here's a few pics of the midcollar plate... hope they help. 
 
Hibernicus 
 
Pic 1 and 2: rolled/inside edge is to your left 
Pic 3: the rolled edge is face on. 
Pic 4: compares a curved midcollar palte to a curved and torqued midcollar plate. 
. 
. 
<img src="http://www.rlqm.com/lorica_midcollar_twist01.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
. 
<img src="http://www.rlqm.com/lorica_midcollar_twist02.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
. 
<img src="http://www.rlqm.com/lorica_midcollar_twist03.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
. 
<img src="http://www.rlqm.com/lorica_midcollar_twist04.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

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