Face mask or face guard in late roman period

[Robert Vermaat]

Yes, Robert! Something like his seems practical indeed.

Practical maybe, but the description of the helmet 'forged in one piece' suggests it and the mask were integral...

And that's the odd thing, integral masks were not used by the Romans before. So a topos after all?

Nathan, all that stuff about dating the Aethiopia - are you SURE we should not split this topic? :?:

[Robert Vermaat]

Be careful about the terminology. Clibanarius does not enter into the literary vocabulary until the 4th century.

I agree. I was a after the 'image of an armoured cavaryman decked in iron from head to toe'. I agree that 'clibanarius' is a late term, i recall your earlier posts about that.

Depending upon how Heliodorus is to be dated, either he or Julian is the first to mention facemasks and the image of the living statue. Before that, writers had merely described these warriors as being completely armoured. Plutarch’s reference to the Armenian cataphracts at Tigranocerta having only their legs and thighs exposed (Plut., Lucullus, 28. 4) could imply that their heads, as well as the rest of their bodies, were completely covered and there is a facemask helmet depicted among the Pergamum reliefs which may support this.

Which means that, as a topos, this image did not really occur in earlier texts?

[Robert Vermaat]

There were, and the Romans did not bother training Gauls or Romans to become archers, they simply imported them from Syria. As the Romans believed, archers are born, not made.

No doubt you can prove that? And explain why bows were made in fabricae in the West? I agree that we see specialists such as the Balearic slingers and Syrian archers during earlier centuries, but archers are such a large proportion of the forces in the West, there is no evidence that all these were 'imported' from Syria. After all Vegetius wrote about the common training of archers in general, not 'just' in Syria.

The Romans did not bother turning Syrians into legionaries either, they came from the west.

I agree with nathan, there's no evidence for your claim, to the contrary.

Not double strength, because it seeems these eastern alae could in fact be even larger. But Alae milliariae are only documented in Syria and Egypt, not in the west.

An ala miliaria is a 'common' ala at double strength. Please show where they were even larger? Also, Nathan has already shown you that alae miliaria also occurred in the West.

Of course you know what I am referring to, the statues of armoured deities form Hatra and, most of all, from Palmyra, show lamellar armour in the old Assyrian construction. You must have seem them.

Obviously I did not know what you were referring to, because we were discussion the armour of the Roman army, not that of Hatra or other non-Roman deities. If that's all you have on Roman soldiers using lamellar armour?

I also don’t really see what point you are trying to make by claiming differences in equipment based on differences in civilization levels between Gaul and Syria).

Compare the masked helmets from the west, especially the earlier ones, with the oldest "Roman" masked helmet from Emesa, Syria. If you do, I am sure you understand what I am talking about.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide me with an answer to a direct question, rather than to send me another riddle. What do cavalry facemasks from the West have to do with civilization levels? These are practical items, not proof of civilization accomplishments. Please elaborate how Roman equipment in the East differed from that in the West, based on your presude 'differences in civilization level' between these parts. I mean, I'm sure you have more than one (presumed) early facemask from Homs? :whistle:

[jho]

Renatus wrote:
there is a facemask helmet depicted among the Pergamum reliefs

Do you have a picture of this, or a link to a source online?

http://www.smb-digital.de

type "Pergamon Athenaheiligtum" into the search box (top right) and you get all the weapons reliefs.

[Renatus]

Renatus wrote:
there is a facemask helmet depicted among the Pergamum reliefs

Do you have a picture of this, or a link to a source online?

http://www.smb-digital.de

type "Pergamon Athenaheiligtum" into the search box (top right) and you get all the weapons reliefs.

Thanks, Jens. That is much clearer than the image I could have provided. For the avoidance of doubt (as we lawyers say), the relevant image is no.5.

Which means that, as a topos, this image did not really occur in earlier texts?

I have been through my references and have found nothing about facemasks or statues before Heliodorus/Julian.

[Nathan Ross]

integral masks were not used by the Romans before. So a topos after all?

By an 'integral' mask I was thinking of something like this one again. The helmet isn't actually 'forged in one piece' (how would the guy get his head inside it, if it were?), but would probably look that way, especially in comparison to other Roman helmets.

Then again, these descriptions of masked cavalrymen seem to imply that there's something new and unusual about their equipment, rather than being merely a heavier version (perhaps) of the traditional cavalry parade panoply.

are you SURE we should not split this topic? :?:

Not sure, no - sent you a PM!

[koechlyruestow]

Robert wrote:

I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide me with an answer to a direct question, rather than to send me another riddle. What do cavalry facemasks from the West have to do with civilization levels? These are practical items, not proof of civilization accomplishments. Please elaborate how Roman equipment in the East differed from that in the West, based on your presude 'differences in civilization level' between these parts. I mean, I'm sure you have more than one (presumed) early facemask from Homs?

Robert, am I that abbrasive? I am sorry if I have irritated you, but I always assume the only way you can make someone see things is by letting them take a look at it. I never learn! If you cannot see the difference in civilisation levels if you compare the beautifully sculpted Syrian helmet to the crude helmets from Gaul, then what help would it do if I remind you that the hellenistic Levant had been an urban, mercantile civilisation long before the Romans occupied it, while Gaul only became urbanised after the Roman occupation, and to a far more limited extent?
I did not mean to antagonise you, but though I believe you are well informed, I think you only look at things from a certain angle. Let me show you what I mean:

Of course you know what I am referring to, the statues of armoured deities form Hatra and, most of all, from Palmyra, show lamellar armour in the old Assyrian construction. You must have seem them.

Obviously I did not know what you were referring to, because we were discussion the armour of the Roman army, not that of Hatra or other non-Roman deities. If that's all you have on Roman soldiers using lamellar armour?

Now I am afraid I am going to irritate you again. I see a dotted line running through the desert, and where it crosses a road there is a barrier and a sign saying "customs" in Latin/Greek and Aramaic/Arabic. On one side Palmyran guards in lamellar armour, on the other local auxilliaries in mail and in the background Roman soldiers in lorica segmentata guarding the customs office. Now I know that is not how you imagine Syria to be in the Roman period, but could you please explain how else I am to explain the above statement? The civilisation of Hellenistic Syria did not stop at the Roman border, the Parthians and the Romans had divided up this area, but the civilisation was the same on both sides of the border.

By the way, you did help me see something:

Exactly, I am turning it around. Ammianus and other Roman authors were in a far better position to study the equipment of their own armoured cavalry, than to see the equipment of the enemy. More important, most of their readers would only be aquainted with Roman armoured cavalry.

I disagree. Of course Ammianus’ readers would not often be in the position to watch Sassanid cavalry forming up (if they were lucky) but most of his readers would also never see a Roman soldier in real life. I don’t see it as a reason NOT to describe Roman cavalry, that’s for sure.

I will not going into the matter of Romans not having seen Roman soldiers, but that reminded me: at festivals, games, religious and state celebrations, the soldiers had to turn up in their finery. Perhaps Heliodoros got his image of cataphracts from Roman cavalry, assisting at celebrations, decked out in their most colourfull equipment and perhaps wearing ornate sports helmets instead of their usual equipment? Easy Robert, it is just a suggestion. :grin:

[Robert Vermaat]

By an 'integral' mask I was thinking of something like this one again. The helmet isn't actually 'forged in one piece' (how would the guy get his head inside it, if it were?), but would probably look that way, especially in comparison to other Roman helmets.

Indeed. I was not exactly thinking of this one when 'integral' is used - this is clearly made from two separate pieces.

are you SURE we should not split this topic? :?:

Not sure, no - sent you a PM!

OK, the Heliodorus part of this thread is being split off to a new section:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/17-roma...opica.html
Unfortunately a few posts have become a tbit muddled, but not too much, I think it does not hurt the gist of the discussion.

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert, am I that abrasive? [..] I did not mean to antagonise you, but though I believe you are well informed

Not abrasive, and sure I am informed, but nevertheless I got a bit irked when presented with your answer ('go compare this and that and you'll see I'm right'). It did not help me, nor other readers of this discussion. It’s not a chat, after all. No harm done, we will speak of it no more.

If you cannot see the difference in civilisation levels if you compare the beautifully sculpted Syrian helmet to the crude helmets from Gaul, then what help would it do if I remind you that the hellenistic Levant had been an urban, mercantile civilisation long before the Romans occupied it, while Gaul only became urbanised after the Roman occupation, and to a far more limited extent?

I can surely see the differences between Syrian cities and those in Gaul, and I also see the difference between a fine piece of equipment and one that seems to be crude. However:
- one item is clearly made for practical use, while the other is made for a different purpose. Usable yes, but made to show off.
- the differences between both items has nothing to do with the ability to make them, nor does it reflect on the regions of origin. I have no doubt (as other items prove) that in Gaul, elaborately decorated helmets could be produced. They were.
Back to our discussion, I see no reason to assume differences in equipment between Roman units from the East and those from the West, based on ‘differences in civilization’ between East and West. The army produced for everyone to the same standard, and although soldiers surely bought local items of equipment they did not replace their entire kit with those.

Now I am afraid I am going to irritate you again. I see a dotted line running through the desert, and where it crosses a road there is a barrier and a sign saying "customs" in Latin/Greek and Aramaic/Arabic. On one side Palmyran guards in lamellar armour, on the other local auxilliaries in mail and in the background Roman soldiers in lorica segmentata guarding the customs office. Now I know that is not how you imagine Syria to be in the Roman period, but could you please explain how else I am to explain the above statement? The civilisation of Hellenistic Syria did not stop at the Roman border, the Parthians and the Romans had divided up this area, but the civilisation was the same on both sides of the border.

Oh for sure this influence was present, I don’t deny that (and I’m not irritated, you explained yourself perfectly this time). I can even go beyond that, local auxiliaries and allies would even be seen to wear such equipment to some extent, I have no doubt of it.
But it goes to far to look at a deity from Hatra and simply say ‘look, the influenced Rome’ and to go on accepting that ‘therefore’, Roman legionaries ‘had to’ wear the same equipment. Rome produced armour for their troops, and so far we don’t see them producing lamellar.
I could turn this around of course, and state that the hatra deity was influenced by Persian armour, instead of the Hatra deity reflecting what Roman soldiers would have worn.

I will not going into the matter of Romans not having seen Roman soldiers, but that reminded me: at festivals, games, religious and state celebrations, the soldiers had to turn up in their finery. Perhaps Heliodoros got his image of cataphracts from Roman cavalry, assisting at celebrations, decked out in their most colourfull equipment and perhaps wearing ornate sports helmets instead of their usual equipment? Easy Robert, it is just a suggestion. :grin:

Why would Roman troops wear armour during festivities? Military games did not involve civilians, and those troops seen by civilians during festive occasions would either be on parade (which did not happen very often) or be present in off-duty clothing, which did not differ very much from what civilians wore themselves. But most civilians would not see a soldier, if they did not live in a frontier province or in the capitals where parades were held. We’re talking about a small minority.

[Nathan Ross]

I was not exactly thinking of this one when 'integral' is used - this is clearly made from two separate pieces.

Yep. But what I meant is that the helmet is clearly made with the mask as an integral aspect, rather than the mask just being added to a normal cavalry helmet. If the helmet actually was in one piece (unless it was like some sort of bucket, perhaps!) the rider probably would not be able to fit his head through the neck-hole. The clibanarii masked helmet probably looked rather different (perhaps completely different?), but I'm suggesting that earlier Roman helmets of this sort offer perhaps a better model for their development. In fact, some of these 'cavalry sports' helmets may be dated to the mid third century anyway, so perhaps not so far off.

But most civilians would not see a soldier, if they did not live in a frontier province or in the capitals where parades were held. We’re talking about a small minority.

Interesting point - in the eastern provinces, especially in later centuries, it was common practice for troops to be billeted in cities. Pollard (Soldiers, Cities and Civilians in Rome Syria) suggests that units of the eastern field army may have been based very close to population centres. So while Ammianus' readers in Rome may have been unacquainted with soldiers, those in eastern parts of the empire may have been far more familiar with them!

(Good work on the Heliodorus spilt btw - it looks quite neatly done!)

[Robert Vermaat]

I was not exactly thinking of this one when 'integral' is used - this is clearly made from two separate pieces.

Yep. But what I meant is that the helmet is clearly made with the mask as an integral aspect, rather than the mask just being added to a normal cavalry helmet.[/quote] OK, so you mean like 'hinged' masks, perhaps?

I'm suggesting that earlier Roman helmets of this sort offer perhaps a better model for their development. In fact, some of these 'cavalry sports' helmets may be dated to the mid third century anyway, so perhaps not so far off.

I'm no expert in earlier 'sports' helemts, but in that case, can such a mask be attached to any helemt? I was wondering about that, because if you want an 'integral' helmet, you need a special helmet for that purpose, right? That why I liked Jirky's solution (and my goofing off), because such a mask can be added to existing helmets, while we don't have a late example of such an 'integral' helmet.

But most civilians would not see a soldier, if they did not live in a frontier province or in the capitals where parades were held. We’re talking about a small minority.

Interesting point - in the eastern provinces, especially in later centuries, it was common practice for troops to be billeted in cities. Pollard (Soldiers, Cities and Civilians in Rome Syria) suggests that units of the eastern field army may have been based very close to population centres. So while Ammianus' readers in Rome may have been unacquainted with soldiers, those in eastern parts of the empire may have been far more familiar with them!

Indeed, I forgot about that, good point. The same would be true of many smaller towns in the West as well, which would (but still in frontier provinces) allow far more citizens to see armoured troops.

(Good work on the Heliodorus spilt btw - it looks quite neatly done!)

:-)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

*now to the correct place
Hi everyone!
I really need some sources on whether romans used face masks,or full-face guards on helmets in the late roman period,for infantryman,or not.I know cavalry used them,but i was thinking about:could infantryman wear those type of helmets?Looking forward to any answer,thank you very much.

I believe 7 masks were found in the imperial palace in Constantinople.
But this is a lot later than the widow most people would term Late Roman, although they were the late Empire.

[Nathan Ross]

I'm no expert in earlier 'sports' helemts, but in that case, can such a mask be attached to any helemt? I was wondering about that, because if you want an 'integral' helmet, you need a special helmet for that purpose, right?

Yes, I think a 'special helmet' is what we're looking for here. The majority of masked 'sports' helmets were clearly made as such - the Crosby Garret helmet for example - rather than just adding bits to a normal helmet. The front and back parts could not be worn by themselves - they were two halves of a one-piece helmet.

There are later examples of these - this 'Amazonian' one for example, or this one - usually dated 2nd-3rd century, although I still don't know what the rationale for the dating is.

Clearly, a man wearing something like that would actually appear to be a living statue, with no poetic licence required!

Meanwhile, there's this odd item. I can't tell from the description whether it's supposed to be based on an original piece or some kind of fantasy item (what does 'a possible replica Germanic bronze Parade Face helmet, produced in the style of the Roman "Hippika Gymnasia" (Cavalry Sports) helmets' actually mean??), but it does slightly resemble the helmet on the Pergamum reliefs!

[Ildar]

We know of Turkish cavalry helmets with face masks, but so far, no examples of such Roman helemts have been found, in the ground or in art.

Had you, gents, been to the ROMEC in Zagreb, you would have surely visited a specially organized exhibition of Roman equipment that hosted items from all over Croatia. And you would have seen the unpublished facemask from Siscia. This mask, which something resembles the masks from Topkapi, in my opinion is clearly late. In the catalogue of the exhibition it is dated to the 4th century with a question mark.

[Nathan Ross]

The 'living statues' image also turns up in Claudian:

On the left stands the infantry. Over against them the cavalry seek to restrain their eager steeds by holding tight the reins. Here nod the savage waving plumes whose wearers rejoice to shake the flashing colours of their shoulder-armour; for steel clothes them on and gives them their shape; the limbs within give life to the armour's pliant scales so artfully conjoined, and strike terror into the beholder. 'Tis as though iron statues moved and men lived cast from that same metal. The horses are armed in the same way; their heads are encased in threatening iron, their forequarters move beneath steel plates protecting them from wounds...

(Against Rufinus, II.357)


Many an innocent maid, while simple modesty blushes in her cheek, would bend her gaze o'er all and inquire of her aged nurse the meaning of the dragons on the colours. "Do they," she would ask, "but wave in the air or is theirs a veritable hiss, uttered as they are about to seize an enemy in their jaws?" When she sees the mail-clad knights and brazen-armoured horses she would fain know whence that iron race of men is sprung and what land it is gives birth to steeds of bronze. "Has the god of Lemnos," she would ask, "bestowed on metal the power to neigh, and forged living statues for the fight?" Joy and fear fill her mind; she points with her finger how Juno's bird decks the gay crests upon their helmets, or how, beneath the golden armour on their horses' backs, the red silk waves and ripples over the strong shoulders.

(On the Sixth Consulship of Honorius, 600)


No mention of masks here - although perhaps it is implied in the image?

Translations from Lacus Curtius

This mask, which something resembles the masks from Topkapi

Does anyone have a picture of either this one or the Topkapi examples (aside from the rough sketch in the Osprey book?)