Face mask or face guard in late roman period

[Robert Vermaat]

Plus (I think) the Persian cataphracts wore masks in combat, so it's not an impossible feat or anything...

Ammianus again (Amm. 25.1.12):
And he did see them.

Indeed he saw them. Persian heavy cavalry. Like I said (again): it's not impossible, but most likely not common Roman heavy cavalry.

[Renatus]

Indeed he saw them. Persian heavy cavalry. Like I said (again): it's not impossible, but most likely not common Roman heavy cavalry.

Well, you know my views on that - clibanarii (or cataphracti equites), full body armour, facemask helmets, armoured horses and all the works (but no shields), and cataphractarii, not as heavily armoured but more so than regular cavalry, long mail or scale shirts, shields or not as tactics required and unarmoured horses.

[Robert Vermaat]

But, as far as I recall, he was not describing their armour, so there was no occasion to mention the facemasks.

That's the chicken and the egg, because now you seem to be saying that face masks were present but Ammianus 'just so happened' not to be describing armour that day.

It is my understanding that the Roman clibanarii were based on the Persian model and the Persian's wore facemasks. The sources, though few in number, seem fairly explicit; you can't reject them just because you don't like them.

That's too simple. a) we don't know what Roman clibinarii were based on, but I think that yes, we can assume that Sassanid clibinarii were a large influence. b) Persian cavalry did have facemasks but here, too, we don't see many of those in art. Mail face coverings are more common.

The sources, though few in number, seem fairly explicit; you can't reject them just because you don't like them.

Is that what you think I'm doing? Because to me it seemd that I was discussing those sources and looking for a context for my interpretaion, as you do. ;-) Never did I reject them. Ammianus discusses cavalry with facemasks, that's a given, and even discusses them (once) within a Roman context. The Column of Arcadius, too, shows facemasks. neither however shows them unequivocally. There's room for discussion.

[Robert Vermaat]

Having provided such a rich and vivid description of the clibanarii in Book 16 of his history, he surely would not have needed to repeat himself? That would have been a major rhetorical faux-pas!

Why? Repetition was not an uncommon stylistic figure in ancient texts. Ammianus doies repeat his description of (facemasked) Persian cavalry. Yet he mentions them only at one occasion - Constantius' Roman parade.

And Julian's oration to Constantius, which is actually describing the victory over Magnentius at Mursa in 351.

I don't have that text, isn't that the same occasion? The parade in Rome?

Interestingly, Julian in his oration seems to suggest that Constantius invented this type of cavalry, and practiced in the armour himself: [..]
This is probably a bit of flattery, since clibanarii were used by Maxentius, and presumably Constantine too. Constantius may have developed the arm somewhat, perhaps.[/quote] Perhaps he showed something never seen before: clibinarii armoured in a different manner to the Roman fashion? Which would explain why such facemasks were not described elsewhere. Just to make a big inpression on the people of Rome.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think we can cicle around this matter until we're dizzy but it seems to come down to different interpretations of very scace evidence.

The original question was:

I really need some sources on whether romans used face masks,or full-face guards on helmets in the late roman period,for infantryman,or not.

I think we can safely say that, while it's debatable for cvalry, it's without provenance for infantry. Every facemask so far described, Roman or non-Roman, seems to occur for cavalry.

[Renatus]

That's the chicken and the egg, because now you seem to be saying that face masks were present but Ammianus 'just so happened' not to be describing armour that day.

What's wrong with that? You're not seriously suggesting that, every time he mentions Roman heavy cavalry, Ammianus has to give us an itemised inventory of their equipment, are you?

[Renatus]

And Julian's oration to Constantius, which is actually describing the victory over Magnentius at Mursa in 351.

I don't have that text, isn't that the same occasion? The parade in Rome?

No, the parade in Rome was in 357. The text is Julian, Oration 1, 37B-38A.

[Nathan Ross]

I don't have that text, isn't that the same occasion? The parade in Rome?

Here it is in English translation:

Julian Oration 1 - Panegyric to Constantius II

The description of the armoured cavalry comes straight after the account of the battle of Mursa. The oration itself is dated to 355, and so predates the parade in Rome described by Ammianus. Julian is quite clear that he is describing a large body of troops equipped in this way, not just a few individuals dressed up to impress the public!

[Caballo]

Thanks- I didn't know this one. Worth quoting the para in full (btw, could someone add the Latin original?):

"The trophy that you set up for that victory was far more brilliant than your father's. He led an army that had always proved itself invincible, and with it conquered a miserable old man.But the tyranny that you suppressed was flourishing and had reached its height, partly through the crimes that had been committed, but still more because so many of the youth were on that side, and you took the field against it with legions that had been trained by yourself.

What emperor can one cite in the past who first planned and then reproduced so admirable a type of cavalry, and such accoutrements?

First you trained yourself to wear them, and then you taught others how to use such weapons so that none could withstand them. This is a subject on which many have ventured to speak, but they have failed to do it justice, so much so that those who heard their description, and later had the good fortune to see for themselves, decided that their eyes must accept what their ears had refused to credit.

Your cavalry was almost unlimited in numbers and they all sat their horses like statues, while their limbs were fitted with armour that followed closely the outline of the human form. It covers the arms from wrist to elbow and thence to the shoulder, while a coat of mail protects the shoulders, back and breast. The head and face are covered by a metal mask which makes its wearer look like a glittering statue, for not even the thighs and legs and the very ends of the feet lack this armour. It is attached to the cuirass by fine chain-armour like a web, so that no part of the body is visible and uncovered, for this woven covering protects the hands as well, and is so flexible that the wearers can bend even their fingers.

All this I desire to represent in words as vividly as I can, but it is beyond my powers, and I can only ask those who wish to know more about this armour to see it with their own eyes, and not merely to listen to my description." I wish I could!!

With two descriptions from separate commentators, and depictions (albeit copies) on monuments, I think there is fairly strong evidence that facemasks were worn by some cavalry in the fourth century. Thats not to say that all cavalry wore them! I'd agree that there is no evidence for infantry wearing a facemask though.

[Nathan Ross]

Worth quoting the para in full

Just to clarify the context, the 'victory' is the battle of Mursa (351), the 'miserable old man' is Licinius, and 'tyranny' is that of Magnentius.

With two descriptions from separate commentators, and depictions (albeit copies) on monuments, I think there is fairly strong evidence that facemasks were worn by some cavalry in the fourth century.

Yep, I'd say 'fairly strong evidence' about covers it! mile:

[Renatus]

Thanks- I didn't know this one. Worth quoting the para in full (btw, could someone add the Latin original?)

It's in Greek, I'm afraid.

[Condottiero Magno]

Plate 3 - the death of General Gainas (12/23/AD400) - from D'Amato's The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD

In addition to the Column of Arcadius as a source, the text says:

Their helmets are based on an actual specimen found in the Theodosian fortress of Richborough in Britain.

Masked helmets with human faces (personati) were still employed by cavalrymen, often decorated in red leather. The Arcadius Column shows the use of both male and female types. This is the last example in Roman art of the traditional masked helmet on the battlefield, confirmed by the almost contemporary specimen of Osjiek.

[Caballo]

I think the Richborough helmet is the one shown on the guy with the red feather crest? (Robert Vermaat kindly sent me the pdf from JRMES a while ago). Not sure which helmet the Osjiek find refers to - anyone got more info?

[Robert Vermaat]

That's the chicken and the egg, because now you seem to be saying that face masks were present but Ammianus 'just so happened' not to be describing armour that day.

What's wrong with that? You're not seriously suggesting that, every time he mentions Roman heavy cavalry, Ammianus has to give us an itemised inventory of their equipment, are you?

For sure I am not! ;-) He does seem to have no qualms doing that a lot of time when watching persian cavalry though..

And Julian's oration to Constantius, which is actually describing the victory over Magnentius at Mursa in 351.

I don't have that text, isn't that the same occasion? The parade in Rome?

No, the parade in Rome was in 357. The text is Julian, Oration 1, 37B-38A.

Well that IS new information to me, I missed that one. That doubles the evidence, and is the first description of 'real' Roman cavalry with facemasks.

Thanks Nathan!

The description of the armoured cavalry comes straight after the account of the battle of Mursa. The oration itself is dated to 355, and so predates the parade in Rome described by Ammianus. Julian is quite clear that he is describing a large body of troops equipped in this way, not just a few individuals dressed up to impress the public!

Thank you! Now that's what I call serious evidence!

That loud scraping noise you hear is me changing my position about Late Roman cavalry using facemasks. :woot:

[Virilis]

Thanks Nathan & other guys! mile: This is very interesting, all kinds of images whirling around my head with masks on!