The Batavi and Traditional Japanese Swimming

[MarcusNorwood]

I have been a serious swimmer my entire life. In the past I have been able to swim long distances and swim in rip currents others would not risk. A few months ago I became acquainted with Japanese traditional swimming which involves a person dressing in full Samurai armor and swimming in it. When I saw this I naturally began to consider whether or not someone could swim in a Roman kit.

I personally believe that a person would sink like a rock if they tried it. This morning I was reading about the Batavi and according to this source they were known for swimming across rivers in their kit. :o

How can this be true? :? Did they put their gear on a raft and pull it across with a tether? or did they actually swim with hamata or segmentata on? If they did I am thinking about attempting it in a pool where the water is not over my head. I will film the whole event for posterity. I just need to figure out how to prevent my hamata from rusting after I get out.

[scotti73]

Apparently 4 infantry men could swim across on the saddle horns of a cavalryman.

[jvrjenivs]

Well, a lot has been written on this 'speciallity' of the Batavians. Different views are discussed in scientific literature and there isn't a general view on what to make out of it, if it would be true at all.

For now I'm not going into to much details as I'm planning on an article on the subject and not going to post all my material on here.

Apparently 4 infantry men could swim across on the saddle horns of a cavalryman.

Although I share the clue a horse might be involved in the nature of this special act, I don't support this view, as it doesn't seem to be possible physically. First the cavalryman himself should be dismounted when swimming with his horse and secondly because 4 people holding one saddle would be too close together to be able to swim at all.

[MarcusNorwood]

If a wood scutum floats that might aid in someone's ability to swim with a kit on or they could use the scutum to put their armor on like a raft. They might have used a log or some other improvised flotation device to pull it off.

Japanese swimmers do no use anything to aid their swim, its all man power using a circular leg motion to stay up.

[M. Demetrius]

A scutum will float, all right, but if you put 20# of metal on it, you'd better be prepared for some snorkeling to retrieve your gear. I don't think it has that much buoyancy.

[MarcusNorwood]

Yeah David that's what I thought. I just can't make any scenario work in my mind. Swimming in a lake would be hard enough if not impossible in all that gear. Swimming in a river with a current is a completely different and more difficult undertaking. They must have had some sort of flotation devise to aid in carrying all that weight.

[M. Demetrius]

I suspect they built small boats when they had to ferry gear across. If Caesar was any example, they might just build a bridge if the legions needed to cross. They knew how, and were pretty quick about it. But that's off topic, sorry.

Swimming, yes. Swimming with armor, helmet, weapons, scutum and full marching kit on a furca, nope.

[Musivarius]

It could be possible for a horse to swim say, 2 men and it's rider across water but armoured men might just be too much drag.

I worked for a horseback outfit in Zimbabwe and we used to swim the horses in the rivers quite regularly. Mostly you stay in/just above the saddle and grip the mane and then neck rein to direct them, if needed. You can do the same with your hands and then just float alongside pulling yourself back over the saddle before the horse starts to come out of the water (always ensuring you don't mistime it in which case you end up chasing the damn thing through the bush!).

2 men would just need a couple of straps to allow them to float over about level with the hindquarters. The problem being the exertion needed by the horse. The extra weight would be more tiring for them. For shorter stretches though and with the 2 guys either side using their legs it should be possible.

[jvrjenivs]

A scutum will float, all right

Do you think so? I wouldn't put my scutum in the water anyway. First because if it would absorb water it will get significan heavier, giving me more load. Secondly, I'm not totally sure how animal glue would behave when soaked. I think it may as well results in a broken scutum.

[jvrjenivs]

Swimming in a river with a current is a completely different and more difficult undertaking.

Well, we also have to take in mind what a 'river with a current' would look like. For the lower rhine DELTA, the area where these famous Batavians are from, it really was a delta, so lots of small floats, easily crossed at certain points.

The Romans put on some water-management of course, giving deeper streams and more current, but one can take that into account by choosing where to cross.

They must have had some sort of flotation devise to aid in carrying all that weight.

Sure, that might be where the horse comes in. Don't forget the Batavians were also known for their riding skills.

[M. Demetrius]

I wouldn't put my scutum in the water anyway

Mine is sealed from water, but I take your meaning. There must have been a reason why they used shield covers, perhaps more for water repellency than for scratch protection. I don't know.

But mine are made from modern plywood, so they won't delaminate. They'd float low in the water, as the boss weighs as much as the rest of the shield. Bad boats. If covered with rawhide, and the water soaked into the leather, all sorts of bad things would happen.

As for swimming across with horses, American Cowboys typically slid down over the horse's rump, and were towed along by the horse tail as the horse swam across, then when they felt the horse's feet touch bottom, they'd get back up in the saddle. Those movies that have the rider still sitting in the saddle, well, that's just the movies. I don't think most horses would be able to swim with someone on their back--since half or more of the rider's body is out of the water and the weight might force the horse below the surface. Try swimming with a 12 year old kid sitting on your back.

[john m roberts]

So how do these Japanese guys manage it? What is the weight of their kit? I've hefted some pretty heavy Japanese armor, but some is far lighter. There's a big difference between an ashigaru's kit and that of a samurai horseman.

[Musivarius]

I don't want to take this too far away from the original post but you can swim a horse by staying on its back, you keep a hold and then float above the saddle. Sliding back to hold onto its tail was something I've heard of too but I've never seen any of the guys I worked with do it. If ever we started coming away from the horse you'd just kick yourself as far away for it as possible, I wouldn't have been inclined to go anywhere near the back end.

If you were hanging onto the tail it would be a real pain to start clambering up its back. As soon as their feet hit solid ground they'll be bounding up out of the water so you're going to have to be pretty athletic to get back into the saddle then.

As far as just swimming goes I can't see that it would be possible unless they carried some sort of flotation device.

[M. Demetrius]

I wonder what they would have used for a float? Wood isn't really buoyant enough, so would it have been some kind of air bladder? Like an air-filled waterskin?

[MarcusNorwood]

My great grandfather was famous in his hometown for swimming across the Atchafalaya River on horseback, so I know that's possible.

Here is a video of the traditional Japanese swimming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k

Just looking at the Samurai kit I think it must me lighter than my Roman kit. I believe that the Batavi must have used a sizable piece of driftwood to help them. I grew up close to the Red River in Louisiana and large pieces of old driftwood are easy to find, assuming the Rhine river had as much vegetation to feed the river with wood. In my experience swimming in rivers is difficult and a swimmer can't really resist a current of any strength.

It is feasible to tow a raft with a tether. I have done this before and it doesn't require nearly as much strength as having added weight directly on your body.